Tyres

SKM18,
Warren and I ran last week as per the Bridgestone bulletin and it didn't seem to effect our lap times.

Why would you not attend?

Anyway it's in the CAMS rule book and you must comply if running Bridgestones, just that nobody ever realised it stuck somewhere in the general section as part of the 59,000 pages that makes up the CAMS Manual of Motorsport.
This rule does not apply in Europe or USA Superkarting, that's why no one gave it any thoughts for the past 15 or so years!

SKM18,
Warren and I ran last week as per the Bridgestone bulletin and it didn't seem to effect our lap times.

Why would you not attend?

Anyway it's in the CAMS rule book and you must comply if running Bridgestones, just that nobody ever realised it stuck somewhere in the general section as part of the 59,000 pages that makes up the CAMS Manual of Motorsport.
This rule does not apply in Europe or USA Superkarting, that's why no one gave it any thoughts for the past 15 or so years!

RS250,

Could you be a lad as to point out where in the CAMS manual this rule is? Also, where can i get hold of the bridgestone bulletin? I've been looking recently but have stuggled to find any info on this tyre thing.

Cheers

RS250,

Could you be a lad as to point out where in the CAMS manual this rule is? Also, where can i get hold of the bridgestone bulletin? I've been looking recently but have stuggled to find any info on this tyre thing.

Cheers

Here you go Loco29. I didn't like it as much as you proberly don't, but it's all here, so you need to deal with it. There is no expections to explore with the Bridgestone tyre.

[b]CAMS Manual Schedule E - Wheels and Tyres
2. TYRES[/b]
[b]2.1[/b] [b]Tyre fitment shall be in accordance with the Tyre and Rim Association Manual; otherwise the tyre manufacturer’s specifications shall be respected.[/b]
So take note of;
otherwise [u]the tyre manufacturer’s specifications shall be respected[/u].

Now, Bridgestone recommends for the YBH,
YBH size 5.0/11.0 - 6 (Front) Rim Width = 5.0"
YBH size 8.0/12.0 - 6 (Rear) Rim Width = 8.0"
Reference can be found at the Bridgestone Kart Tires website....link below
http://www.bridgestone-karttires.com/product.php

Failure to comply will;
"render the competitor liable to be charged and excluded"
These are the words from Peter Lawerence, Technical Services Manager from CAMS.

So, YOU ARE ALL EXPECTED TO COMPLY or be CHARGED.

So you see, it's always been there till people went investigating on how we CAN'T use 9" and 6" rims.
Don't say you have not been warned.

Cheers and see you at the creek Loco29.

Here you go Loco29. I didn't like it as much as you proberly don't, but it's all here, so you need to deal with it. There is no expections to explore with the Bridgestone tyre.

[b]CAMS Manual Schedule E - Wheels and Tyres
2. TYRES[/b]
[b]2.1[/b] [b]Tyre fitment shall be in accordance with the Tyre and Rim Association Manual; otherwise the tyre manufacturer’s specifications shall be respected.[/b]
So take note of;
otherwise [u]the tyre manufacturer’s specifications shall be respected[/u].

Now, Bridgestone recommends for the YBH,
YBH size 5.0/11.0 - 6 (Front) Rim Width = 5.0"
YBH size 8.0/12.0 - 6 (Rear) Rim Width = 8.0"
Reference can be found at the Bridgestone Kart Tires website....link below
http://www.bridgestone-karttires.com/product.php

Failure to comply will;
"render the competitor liable to be charged and excluded"
These are the words from Peter Lawerence, Technical Services Manager from CAMS.

So, YOU ARE ALL EXPECTED TO COMPLY or be CHARGED.

So you see, it's always been there till people went investigating on how we CAN'T use 9" and 6" rims.
Don't say you have not been warned.

Cheers and see you at the creek Loco29.

Thanks man.

Thanks man.

I hear Dunlop make superkart tyres... :)

I hear Dunlop make superkart tyres... :)

Loco,
I have a couple of sets of brand new Dunlop DCS if you want to buy them....going cheap!

I'm sure Les May will specify fitment to wide or narrow rims, so either way you will be in the clear!

Loco,
I have a couple of sets of brand new Dunlop DCS if you want to buy them....going cheap!

I'm sure Les May will specify fitment to wide or narrow rims, so either way you will be in the clear!

Well, we may be forced to run 5 inch rims, but thank the good lord that we don't have to run HG3 tyres :lol:

Well, we may be forced to run 5 inch rims, but thank the good lord that we don't have to run HG3 tyres :lol:

I KNOW I have it sorted. The kart that i'm running has similar specifications as to what Martin Hines ran to win world championships...

I KNOW I have it sorted. The kart that i'm running has similar specifications as to what Martin Hines ran to win world championships...

If you ask me, no kart is sorted untill it wins every race and breaks every lap record there is to break :)

If you ask me, no kart is sorted untill it wins every race and breaks every lap record there is to break :)

True, but there's more to the kart than just the chassis.

True, but there's more to the kart than just the chassis.

I think that the HG3 tyres are good on a 125 rotax, i just prefer the bridgestones for the 250 - that's all i'm saying.

I think that the HG3 tyres are good on a 125 rotax, i just prefer the bridgestones for the 250 - that's all i'm saying.

Where can be put a wager on this?
I'll put my all bank notes on a 6" diameter YBH, mounted on Bridgestones recommended rim widths over a 5" diameter HG3, mounted on Maxxis recommended rim widths any day of the week when it comes to 250 twin racing at 215kgs.

It's just like having to choose between either Rossi or Tomarda.

Where can be put a wager on this?
I'll put my all bank notes on a 6" diameter YBH, mounted on Bridgestones recommended rim widths over a 5" diameter HG3, mounted on Maxxis recommended rim widths any day of the week when it comes to 250 twin racing at 215kgs.

It's just like having to choose between either Rossi or Tomarda.

I think Martin raced here a little (not sure exactly when but i think it may have been the GP, a few other races and also at AIR for some bridgestone tyre development/testing - which was actually done on the six inch rims!). Dave Hepworth was his mechanic for two world championships plus a number of other events including Laguna Seca a few years ago. Also, Dave helped design the Eagle II chassis. However, i think there is more to the Hines and Hepworth story than these things.

The kart that went into the wall was Barb Hepworth, and it happened because someone spilt fuel on the racetrack! (also the reason why there was a fire involved - although it was someone other than Barb who caught alight). I think the Adelaide superkart club has the footage from the race.

I think Martin raced here a little (not sure exactly when but i think it may have been the GP, a few other races and also at AIR for some bridgestone tyre development/testing - which was actually done on the six inch rims!). Dave Hepworth was his mechanic for two world championships plus a number of other events including Laguna Seca a few years ago. Also, Dave helped design the Eagle II chassis. However, i think there is more to the Hines and Hepworth story than these things.

The kart that went into the wall was Barb Hepworth, and it happened because someone spilt fuel on the racetrack! (also the reason why there was a fire involved - although it was someone other than Barb who caught alight). I think the Adelaide superkart club has the footage from the race.

Yamahead,
I have no issues with you running 5" diameter tyres in 250 twin. As long as you conform to the rules of;
1) Beads locks in accordance
2) Rim Width in accordance

There is nothing in the rule book that says you can't run this or that tyre. Forgot about any pressures imposed to you from other people, conform to the rule book and smile. :lol:

As for anyone here being pissed off with conforming to the rim widths, it's been there for years, no one protested anyone before the end of the meeting because no one knew. At Eastern Creek, you can expect to either conform or be protested against by others, that's if the Superkart officials try to turn a blind eye against our safety!

Being an experienced person in stewards rooms, (I was a CAMS Grade 4 steward at one stage) I can tell you that it's not a nice place to be at a National event. They take their job very seriously at meetings of this level.

Yamahead,
I have no issues with you running 5" diameter tyres in 250 twin. As long as you conform to the rules of;
1) Beads locks in accordance
2) Rim Width in accordance

There is nothing in the rule book that says you can't run this or that tyre. Forgot about any pressures imposed to you from other people, conform to the rule book and smile. :lol:

As for anyone here being pissed off with conforming to the rim widths, it's been there for years, no one protested anyone before the end of the meeting because no one knew. At Eastern Creek, you can expect to either conform or be protested against by others, that's if the Superkart officials try to turn a blind eye against our safety!

Being an experienced person in stewards rooms, (I was a CAMS Grade 4 steward at one stage) I can tell you that it's not a nice place to be at a National event. They take their job very seriously at meetings of this level.

[quote="LOCO 29"]I KNOW I have it sorted. The kart that i'm running has similar specifications as to what Martin Hines ran to win world championships...[/quote]
Hey Loco,
Martin ran a Zip Eagle/Rotax, don't you run a Zip EagleII/BRC? That's a different chassis and engine.......

Is Riley coming out again?

[quote="LOCO 29"]I KNOW I have it sorted. The kart that i'm running has similar specifications as to what Martin Hines ran to win world championships...[/quote]
Hey Loco,
Martin ran a Zip Eagle/Rotax, don't you run a Zip EagleII/BRC? That's a different chassis and engine.......

Is Riley coming out again?

Basically the only diffference between the Eagle I and Eagle II chassis is a stronger front end to improve the braking capacity of the kart. The first time Martin tested the new chassis he unofficially broke the lap record by 2 seconds at some European racetrack (i can't remember which one now) with the wrong gearing on. So the chassis is competetive nonetheless.

I was only referring to the chassis when saying that it's fundamentally the same setup as Martin's.

Unfortunately Riley won't be coming to Sydney as the Zip BRCs won't be making an appearance. We'd like to be there but unfortunately there are too many things working against us at the moment. Good luck though and i hope it's a good race meeting.

Basically the only diffference between the Eagle I and Eagle II chassis is a stronger front end to improve the braking capacity of the kart. The first time Martin tested the new chassis he unofficially broke the lap record by 2 seconds at some European racetrack (i can't remember which one now) with the wrong gearing on. So the chassis is competetive nonetheless.

I was only referring to the chassis when saying that it's fundamentally the same setup as Martin's.

Unfortunately Riley won't be coming to Sydney as the Zip BRCs won't be making an appearance. We'd like to be there but unfortunately there are too many things working against us at the moment. Good luck though and i hope it's a good race meeting.

i read somewhere on some forum that this was going to be the meeting the brcs where going to give it back to the stockman hondas???
whats happened :oops:

i read somewhere on some forum that this was going to be the meeting the brcs where going to give it back to the stockman hondas???
whats happened :oops:

LOCO,
It's a shame your not coming. I really hope you somehow surprise me by turning up to race.

PDUN,
Your right! It took me a bit of digging but I think I found what you have said.
Phillip Island 2007 was the first time Riley saw his engines getting past down the straight. Sounds like he went home with a mission.
[url]http://www.samzavaglia.com/Riley.jpg[/url]

LOCO,
It's a shame your not coming. I really hope you somehow surprise me by turning up to race.

PDUN,
Your right! It took me a bit of digging but I think I found what you have said.
Phillip Island 2007 was the first time Riley saw his engines getting past down the straight. Sounds like he went home with a mission.
[url]http://www.samzavaglia.com/Riley.jpg[/url]

Unfortunately there's no bluffing going on this time RS250:(

Reasons for not going don't lie just with engine performance. Finances are an important factor and also the tyre/rim issue threw another spanner in the workx.

Unfortunately there's no bluffing going on this time RS250:(

Reasons for not going don't lie just with engine performance. Finances are an important factor and also the tyre/rim issue threw another spanner in the workx.

Max,
I don't think there is anything wrong with that tyre rule...it stops people doing potentially some very stupid things.
The real issue here lies with Bridgestone. Maybe they should spec their YBH tyre so that;
Front is 5" wide as optimal, max recommended width is 6".
Rear is 8" wide as optimal, max recommended width is 9".
They don't do that so you either live with it or use another brand that does.....simple.

Now the issue here is that in the last 3 years we have had some tyre failures. [u]It has nothing to do with blistering.[/u]
No one has actually quizzed why this is happening but it seems that people who don't race, or have never had this happen to them, know exactly what the solution is.
[u]What will happen if the same problem occurs on the recommended rim size?[/u] I'm not talking about the tyres blistering, I'm talking about the same type of tyre failure. Then what?

Yes there is proberly a few other rules deep in the book that could proberly catch every competitor out, whether it's a performance, intentional unfair advantage, disregard for safety or just a simple anomoly will generally determine the stewards decesion against the accused.

This is why I beleive open classes are generally the happiest classes, it's the only reason I left 100NGB for 250 Twin. In the USA they have this class called "Run what ya Brung", mate there are superchargers, methenol, big cc's, you name it, might not be the safest class but can you imagine how short the list of rules are?

Max,
I don't think there is anything wrong with that tyre rule...it stops people doing potentially some very stupid things.
The real issue here lies with Bridgestone. Maybe they should spec their YBH tyre so that;
Front is 5" wide as optimal, max recommended width is 6".
Rear is 8" wide as optimal, max recommended width is 9".
They don't do that so you either live with it or use another brand that does.....simple.

Now the issue here is that in the last 3 years we have had some tyre failures. [u]It has nothing to do with blistering.[/u]
No one has actually quizzed why this is happening but it seems that people who don't race, or have never had this happen to them, know exactly what the solution is.
[u]What will happen if the same problem occurs on the recommended rim size?[/u] I'm not talking about the tyres blistering, I'm talking about the same type of tyre failure. Then what?

Yes there is proberly a few other rules deep in the book that could proberly catch every competitor out, whether it's a performance, intentional unfair advantage, disregard for safety or just a simple anomoly will generally determine the stewards decesion against the accused.

This is why I beleive open classes are generally the happiest classes, it's the only reason I left 100NGB for 250 Twin. In the USA they have this class called "Run what ya Brung", mate there are superchargers, methenol, big cc's, you name it, might not be the safest class but can you imagine how short the list of rules are?

[quote="mal"]what forum was that on RS?.....[/quote]
Mal,
On that forum, the only way to post is by using your FULL name as your login name. I think it's a great idea so we all know who we are talking to. There is never any abuse or below the belly comments. :lol:

In saying that, I must commend the good behaviour here of late from the users....great to see......there is no problem if you need to serve out abuse in PM.....after all, everyone has their differences. :wink:

[quote="mal"]what forum was that on RS?.....[/quote]
Mal,
On that forum, the only way to post is by using your FULL name as your login name. I think it's a great idea so we all know who we are talking to. There is never any abuse or below the belly comments. :lol:

In saying that, I must commend the good behaviour here of late from the users....great to see......there is no problem if you need to serve out abuse in PM.....after all, everyone has their differences. :wink:

Yamahead,
The steel wires in the mounting area of the tyres STAY on the bead and STAY behind the bead locks, the tyre tears at the thickest part of the side wall, where the wire is(the bead), then it all starts from one little wire poking his little head through and then get worst very quickly till a complete and instant bang.

Why does this happen is for more than 1 reason. Here are some things that should be considered in understanding the complexity we have been through.

1- Is the mechancial load now too much for the YBH?
2- Is the rim too wide?
3- Are the higher 250 weights effecting this?
4- Is the bead of the tyre getting too hot?
5- Is the tyre rotating on the rim and the bead locks cutting into the tyre with side load out of a corner?
6- Is the tyre intergrity damaged at 90psi to bead them onto wide rims?
7- It occurs on the inside bead of the loaded rear tyre.
8- Has putting 6 bead locks on the inside of the rim helped the issue?
9- YES, IT HAS HAPPENED ON 8" RIMS

Now remember, for years and years we have never seen this problem, all of a sudden it starts showing on some "fast runners". What has changed in this time?

I think we are finally onto it as I seemed to have stopped it for myself.....but it is a very fine line.

I have purchased 3 infrared temp sensors to go into my logger to point at different side parts of the tyre to try and understand this problem.....well the sad thing now is we will now never fully understand using REAL data as the FACTS because we are now forced under different circumstances.

So what has any intrested parties now learned from this.....nothing.

Yamahead,
The steel wires in the mounting area of the tyres STAY on the bead and STAY behind the bead locks, the tyre tears at the thickest part of the side wall, where the wire is(the bead), then it all starts from one little wire poking his little head through and then get worst very quickly till a complete and instant bang.

Why does this happen is for more than 1 reason. Here are some things that should be considered in understanding the complexity we have been through.

1- Is the mechancial load now too much for the YBH?
2- Is the rim too wide?
3- Are the higher 250 weights effecting this?
4- Is the bead of the tyre getting too hot?
5- Is the tyre rotating on the rim and the bead locks cutting into the tyre with side load out of a corner?
6- Is the tyre intergrity damaged at 90psi to bead them onto wide rims?
7- It occurs on the inside bead of the loaded rear tyre.
8- Has putting 6 bead locks on the inside of the rim helped the issue?
9- YES, IT HAS HAPPENED ON 8" RIMS

Now remember, for years and years we have never seen this problem, all of a sudden it starts showing on some "fast runners". What has changed in this time?

I think we are finally onto it as I seemed to have stopped it for myself.....but it is a very fine line.

I have purchased 3 infrared temp sensors to go into my logger to point at different side parts of the tyre to try and understand this problem.....well the sad thing now is we will now never fully understand using REAL data as the FACTS because we are now forced under different circumstances.

So what has any intrested parties now learned from this.....nothing.

Oh Yerr,
It was 2 of our rims with the tyre still mounted to it sent to DPE after Phillip Island 2007 for [u]Bridgestone[/u] to comment. Not even 2 days later the rims come back with tyres still mounted, a DPE bulliten gets sent out to all dealers and yet no feedback was ever asked about to the issue.

In my opinion, AND IT'S MY OPINON, after all I had tried and all the wasted Bridgestone tyres with near new tread I put into the bin, that was a piss poor effort from DPE.

Oh Yerr,
It was 2 of our rims with the tyre still mounted to it sent to DPE after Phillip Island 2007 for [u]Bridgestone[/u] to comment. Not even 2 days later the rims come back with tyres still mounted, a DPE bulliten gets sent out to all dealers and yet no feedback was ever asked about to the issue.

In my opinion, AND IT'S MY OPINON, after all I had tried and all the wasted Bridgestone tyres with near new tread I put into the bin, that was a piss poor effort from DPE.

Do you think the problem is something in the setup of the kart(s)?

Has anyone else had the same problems?

Do you think the problem is something in the setup of the kart(s)?

Has anyone else had the same problems?

[quote="LOCO 29"]Do you think the problem is something in the setup of the kart(s)?

Has anyone else had the same problems?[/quote]
Pelly had one happen at Phillip Island many many years ago when his ZIP/TZ250 used to go half alright. The problem happened in exactly the same place on the track as 3 tyres had happen at PI2007. I actually had the tyre in my garage for over 12 months wanting to give it back to DPE back then.

I also saw 2 at Laguna Seca. The weights there are 220kgs because the burgers are bigger in the USA. It happened to a front runner in a P1 chassis.

Yepp YBH tyres, all exactly the same problem, all on the inside bead of the loaded tyre.

[quote="LOCO 29"]Do you think the problem is something in the setup of the kart(s)?

Has anyone else had the same problems?[/quote]
Pelly had one happen at Phillip Island many many years ago when his ZIP/TZ250 used to go half alright. The problem happened in exactly the same place on the track as 3 tyres had happen at PI2007. I actually had the tyre in my garage for over 12 months wanting to give it back to DPE back then.

I also saw 2 at Laguna Seca. The weights there are 220kgs because the burgers are bigger in the USA. It happened to a front runner in a P1 chassis.

Yepp YBH tyres, all exactly the same problem, all on the inside bead of the loaded tyre.