Tyres

That's a good price Ashley, even with frieght.

[quote]For those of you on 5 inch tryes on a 125GB, if your motor has enough grunt, it will be going faster than 200kph at Phillip Island and Eastern Ck which you have already exceeded the speed rating on the tyre.[/quote]

A little disconcerting that someone would sell a tyre not fit for purpose and let everyone know it before hand. Liability insurance covers a lot of things but that???????

[quote][Quote

A little disconcerting that someone would sell a tyre not fit for purpose and let everyone know it before hand. Liability insurance covers a lot of things but that?
/quote]





Interesting you should say that Cookie

They're not CIK approved. Therfore your kart will blow up whilst stationary and you'll crash into a ball of flames, apprently.

If you read the webmaster Technical Regulations it says that for 250cc class you MUST use only CIK approved tyres, identified by CIK marking on the side wall.

Very top of Page 6
[url=http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/02_race/a_general/RA09_webmastering_TechRegs_Q110.pdf]http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/02_race/a_general/RA09_webmastering_TechRegs_Q110.pdf[/url]

Hoosier have not submitted their 6" webmaster tyre for CIK approval before the 8th August 2009 cut-off date, therefore cannot be CIK approved for 2010.

The CIK approval fees and processes is generally why the price is higher than tyres that are not CIK approved.

Just so people know,
it's not the CIK that make up the speed and load ratings. They just approve the tyre, based on what the manufacturer has submitted in there approval form and take the money. This is a fact.

The manufacturer will only put in their approval form for submission, what they gaurantee will be a failsafe speed and load rating 100% of the time. It doesn't mean that if load and speed spike above these ratings there will be a failure.

If the CIK do any testing on webmaster tires, (which I doubt) it will be a shore hardness test over a few radomly selected tires from the 100 that are forwarded to them as part of the approval requirement process and they must be within a tolerance + or - from what the manufacturer states they are.

CIK =
"we will make up rules so that if you want to sell your products to your customers, you will have to pay us for the privilege".
"give us ya money and you (the manufacturer) wear the burden of legal responsibility for your product despite the fact that we approved it".

With chassis Homolagation,
You only have a few measurements that cannot be moved per homolagation period, (3 years)
You have to state how many bends are in the entire main rail layout but you can move them anywhere within that 3 years making it possible to change the handling characteristics almost completely.

It's all crap.

Yeah but,
The rule actually say's:

iii) 250cc Tyres [u]may[/u] be selected from the tyres approved by the FIA/CIK for webmaster Division 1. Subject
to Speed and load rating these include tyres bearing the “CIK” or “CIK/SK ICE” marking [color=blue]or tyres
subsequently approved for use by CAMS.[/color]

So if a manufacturer can supply speed and load ratings, cannot CAMS then approve them for use?

And the third word in says MAY, not must.

But that's just my interpretation, [i]And I'm stupid[/i]

THE GREAT TYRE DEBATE

BRIDGESTONE TYRES FAIL EVERYONE KNOWS THAT DUNLOP TYRES FAIL EVERYONE KNOWS THAT

DO WE INVESTIGATE AND BAN THEM AS FAR AS SAFETY GOES NO.

MAXXIS TYRE FAIL ?

Low track temp with long radius corners = easy to blister tires if pushed to the point that they are sliding across the track= short tire life.

All brands will blister under these conditions if pushed, regardless of rim widths too.

Low track temp = lots of slow speed low load corners = hard to blister tires and tire life is much better.

Brands with CIK stamp no safer than those without one.

(Charlie), the Hoosiers, top speed rating of 180 MPh, ( Wow, thats 289.68KPH, 69.68KPH more than Bridgestone ).
They would be my tire of choice at Daytona if I had a laydown 250 twin!

I've still got a brand new set in plastic.......waiting......however your not allowed to use them.

I had a few different compounds and widths made for me from mid 2007 to late 2008 from Hoosier USA (right side of the tyre stacks). We ended up with a very reasonable tyre and rim combination. I tested them at a few circuits and got some good results at Eastern Creek under racing conditions in Aug 2008. The times will tell you that the tyre was good.
http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results.cgi?03/08/2008.ARDC
In the end it is very comparable to the Bridgestone YBH. The best thing of all was that Hoosier USA listened and made what we asked for and helped all the way during our testing....in plain english.
[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/hosting/Tyres.JPG[/img]

This was in November 2007.
[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/News/OranPk%20GP/Oran%20Pk%20GP%204.jpg[/img]

If and when your are allowed to use them again, they will be imported by the Hoosier Australia. Till then, its no use of Max Dumsney importing the finished product if they can't be used here.

I'd use them just for the writing on the sidewall.

I thought this to be intresting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z88xJwdtSU at the 4min:40sec listen to the commentator.

I thought that too Sam. I wonder if any of the European guys have the same trouble?

Charlie,
They would likely be residual tyres that Max has when he recieved them on my first testing for Hoosier. I don't think there is too many in his stock. I'm pretty sure the R60 that Max has are the 7.1" wide rears and 5.0" wide fronts.

I also had tyres that were 5.5" wide fronts and 8.1" wide rears mounted on 6" wide front and 9" wide rear rims. Add into the combo of a third compound called R55 which were in between the R50 and R60 compounds. I don't think Max has any of those.

So 3 different compounds and 2 different width tyres for both the front and rear.

I think Hoosier has now standised the combo for the USA market, not sure what they ended up with. I'll have to go through all my notes on the differences in feel and lap times but I think the last thing I ended up with was requesting the sidewall stiffness to be changed on my next test. By that time, the new rules were drafted so everything I did turned to nothing for us.

The Stock Honda rules will be submitted with 5" open brand/compound for this very reason.

Controlling the compounds to be used does not save money in the scheme of things in regards to road racing a Rotax Max.
Let's face it, how many tyres do you burn up road racing a 125 Max.......assuming you would now burn up twice the amount of rubber going super soft, will that blow the budget from lets say 2 sets a year to 4 sets at around $230 a set? Will that make for faster lap times?

C'mon, think about it, race entries and all other expenses, opening up the compound will not blow anyone's racing budget.

In fact when you have a controlled compound, it means the smarter and experienced driver(s) will have a few axles in the trailer to make his/her kart work best for the said compound and track conditions....now how does that control cost or make for even parity?

Open it up to any 5" racing kart tyre using your same allocation of tyres per meeting. This is fairest for all brand chassis, types and driver preference and you will never have a tyre shortage problem again regardless of tyre brand change or shortage.

I remember back '94 or '96 the Kobe Japan earthquake hurt Dunlop and we had no tyres for 100NGB unless we ran the Bridgestone YDS which was a rock hard hire kart tyre. Those that had some good Dunlops in their stash got the advantage.

Open it up I say!


I have run the Hoosier R60A and it is slightly harder than the MG Yellow. Both these tyres perform and last well. I get min 2-3 meetings with a Stock Honda (37HP) if using MG Yellows and 1 extra meeting if using the Hoosier R60A.

Why not put the tyres out to tender and make the 125 NGB a proper control class. A tyre supplier will keep a supply of the tyres if he knows that he has a market for them, and the NSA will make some money to fund their Teleconference costs etc instead of the Clubs having to pay. Luke will tell you that the only reason they ran out of SL6's was because of the extra demand caused by the Maxxis tyre being no longer available. When the supply is put up for tender the supplier guarantees to carry stock of the tyres, to supply then at a set price and to pay the NSA a certain amount for every set sold.

I think Sams hoosier tyre sounds interesting. But if the sport went control tyre trying to get a kick back, id think putting the kick back direct into the state clubs would be better than the nsa. The money can still offset the state clubs nsa teleconference costs,and also saves another board holding dollars. Leave it with the clubs.

Wayne

The trouble is Wayne that the Clubs cannot call tenders, it would be better for any money to go to the NSA and they decide what to do with it. All Clubs are represented on the NSA anyway. It could be used to run the NGB Nationals.

Actually the nsa could directly deal with a supplier and work a deal that any saving is passed directly onto the purchaser, being the competitor. Ashley has been doing this already to assist club members. It would be good to give back to all competitors out there rather than offset club meetings so all get a slice of the pie.

Good idea Wayne !

.... so I guess you apply the same theory to the Nationals then ?

That is what happens with the tender process Wayne. The tyres are supplied to the customers at a set price Australia wide, the price is usually lower than normal because of the process. The dealers in each State still make money on them so will hold stock and the NSA makes some money on each tyre that comes into the Country even if it is not sold to a Superkarter just a weekend warrior. We have got to start looking outside our Clubs and get what is the best for the whole Sport so that everyone wins.

Why not put out a survey and ask the people who have a vested interest – the members of the class – and go with what the majority want.
This seems like a simple solution and one that respects the people directly involved in paying the money.

Alan what good does a survey do, it doesn't give the suppliers any hope of being able to work out how many tyres that they need to keep in stock to supply the needs. With the tender process it is a win win situation for all involved, why do you think that most of the other classes do it. In a control class it puts everyone on the same footing and the best driver wins not the best tyre on the day.

Hi Graeme,
The tender process has to administer by someone or some group, but what tends to happen is that person or group are not listening to all the shareholders, just a selected few.
That is why a survey or vote would be the fairest method. The tender process could still be used and the members could vote on which supplier is chosen – one vote per member – now that is simple and fair – everything up front and open - majority rules!

Alan you wouldn't get anyone tendering if they knew that the tenders were open for everyone to see. Who cares who wins it, what we want is the best deal for the karter in the end. The NSA has two members from each Club on the Committee and if they do their job properly and write a specification for the tyre to meet there should not be a problem. It works for the AKA and a lot of CAMS Categories why can't it work for us.

How can it be called price fixing Ashley, the AKA have been tendering tyres for years and are still doing it, V8 Supercars tender for tyres and have been doing it for a few years now. They haven't had any problems and why should we. What I would like to know is why are people against going to tender, are they afraid that they won't be able to get their cut out of it?

I wouldn't have a problem with a controlled single tyre put out to tender, ONLY if it were a single controlled chassis as well. Then no one can complain that you need a particular chassis to work best with the winning tendered tyre.

While there are different chassis out there, some will be advantage by tyre X over tyre Y, assuming tyre X win the tender.

Hasn't V8 Supercar now gone to a controlled chassis with their controlled tyre for 2013?


Ashley,
If it's a tender process, it's on the table for everyone to submit their proposal. As long as the tender process was done fairly, the ACCC have no issue. A max RRP price is set on the tyre and that is it. If the kart shop wants to make $5.00 a set instead of $10 and sell below the RRP, that is not a problem. If the kart shop sell for above the advertised RRP and the customer has an issue of being ripped off, the kart shop may have have a case to answer to ACCC.

I totally agree with what Allan says, let the majority decide. As both the Victorian and Adelaide Superkart clubs made up over 90% of entrants for the Nationals, maybe they can ask their members what they want and mandate rule changes based on that?? Better still why don't they just do a deal with a tyre manufacturer and next year when they organise the Nationals include one set of tyres to be given to the competitors on saturday morning to be used at that meeting in the entry fee?? They do this at all the major sprint meetings, also control tyres are the norm in most major racing classes why aren't we doing it?

[quote author=Raceroz link=topic=1814.msg19117#msg19117 date=1346713403]
also control tyres are the norm in most major racing classes why aren't we doing it?
[/quote]
Currently it is controlled in NGB Superkarting with 4 different tyres to choose from. One compound from Dunlop, Maxxis, MG and Mojo.
The problem arose that Maxxis compound has been discontinued with little notice and Dunlop had supplies based on normal sales, not supplies to make up the short fall just before a major National event given the Maxxis zero stock.

When I raced my 125GB kart in 2007 at QLD Pacific Superkart Challenge and USA meeting, I purchased a set of Maxxis HG3 and Dunlop SL6 and much prefered the Dunlop SL6 for my chassis.

It is in my opinion you should give the competitor some choice/selection to suit their particular chassis than just a single tyre to suit all chassis out there. A single tyre will ballon expenses in different axles and/or chassis change required to remain competitive at the very pointy end, that's my experience anyway.

FWIW...And Sam i know we have discussed this but i still feel strongly about controlling our Stock Honda tyre.
I get what your saying but for me, Dalton and Mark we prefer to control it.
Flame away......

[quote author=PIL007 link=topic=1814.msg19134#msg19134 date=1346736471]
FWIW...And Sam i know we have discussed this but i still feel strongly about controlling our Stock Honda tyre.
I get what your saying but for me, Dalton and Mark we prefer to control it.
Flame away......
[/quote]

I used the same brand/compound tyre you, Dalton, Mark, Jeff and Tracey used for the entire weekend to ensure there was no pecieved advantage by my tyre selection.....delibertly. I wanted to continue my testing on the Hoosier 5" R60A but didn't for this very reason!
I beleive having an open selection of brand/compound helps the guy at the back, not the guy in front, as long as we keep a max of 2 sets per entire meeting.

I used another competitors ignition module as did everyone else in Stock Honda.

All controlled classes should be on the same tyre brand an compound , so 125Gb and national ,open restricted number of sets , inter open, unrestricted.

Hi Guys,
Reduce the cost of racing and you will have plenty of guys to race against – it is that simple. The non-gearbox Max class is a perfect example of this. Perhaps the stock 125 will also prove this in the future. These two classes are growing currently!
Drivers and crew will adapt to whatever rules come into to play so no one is going to be at a disadvantage by a control tyre or by controlling the number of tyres per round. It makes a fair playing field and gives our sport a chance to grow – WIN- WIN!
The twin class has been reducing in the last 5 years and the Nationals are just able to make a class at the titles. This year you have 18 twins at the first round and 13 twins at the second round. In days gone by, that would have been a club meeting.
How low do the numbers have to go to have common sense prevail? We all love the sport so we need to take the appropriate action to make it survive.

Everyone I know who races would like to be competitve. If they are, they tend to stay in the sport.
Restricting to a single brand/compound/shape of tyre to suit all different chassis does not work equally and the guys without the tyre that suits their chassis cannot be competitive at the very pointy end.

If you want everyone to be equally balanced, then everyone should be able to select from at least a good selection of say 4 different tyres, as currently in 125NGB.

If there is no balance, people will walk away. Again this is only to help the guys behind, not the guys in front.

Does everyone only want to see only 1 guy win at every race meeting while others get sick of it and walk away?

I have no issue either way cause my experience and funds will work out a good setup, what about the poor guy who can't/won't buy a new chassis/axle(s) to suit the "control" tyre?

What about in 3 years time when the "control" tyre is no longer made, so it starts again, get a new "control" tyre and buy new chassis so to remain competitive?

Just food for thought..........where is the cost saving now. Most 5" tyres are priced around the same.......what's the cost saving making it controlled.........$100 per year in tyres??

[quote author=GtG001 link=topic=1814.msg19160#msg19160 date=1346894575]
Hi Guys,
Reduce the cost of racing and you will have plenty of guys to race against – it is that simple. The non-gearbox Max class is a perfect example of this. Perhaps the stock 125 will also prove this in the future. These two classes are growing currently!
Drivers and crew will adapt to whatever rules come into to play so no one is going to be at a disadvantage by a control tyre or by controlling the number of tyres per round. It makes a fair playing field and gives our sport a chance to grow – WIN- WIN!
The twin class has been reducing in the last 5 years and the Nationals are just able to make a class at the titles. This year you have 18 twins at the first round and 13 twins at the second round. In days gone by, that would have been a club meeting.
How low do the numbers have to go to have common sense prevail? We all love the sport so we need to take the appropriate action to make it survive.

[/quote]
Not to argue the point Alan but Round 2's lower entries were more than likely due to the fact that most of Twins are in the other 3 states. 13-18 twins at a club day must have been a friggin long time ago, I wish I was around then.

But hey control all the classes tyres and qty's per round I say! It's fantastic for the person who has the tender but also make it so the person who has the tender cannot sell to the public or any non karting related business. The "Australian imported" tyre will have the bar codes on them too if they are the same tyre as is the current AKA tender tyre.

Tenders are chosen based on extensive testing data (which is impossible in superkarting) and price not votes,
Some things are,
-Lap time consistancy
-chassis make useability and friendlyness
-a proven ability to supply following submitting your tender tyre and propossed pricing


I remember back when Australia had all AKA classes on Bridgestone. Easy money, unload the containers and put them on the shelf, grab from the shelf, stick a label on them and send. It sure bet the cost of Manufacturing ones own products.

Hi Scott,
It is sad to think that it has got to this point - the hey day was when the Formula 1 was available to Superkarts - Track density was 55 - 57 if I remember and there was even a reserve list for those who did not get an entry.

I see that the Victoria Titles at Philip Island recently had just 3 twins only - now that is sad and I hope it does not go unnoticed. :'(

Scott,
I have invested a reasonable amount of money in a new twin and should be there for next year but if it gets too expensive to run or to be competitive, I will drop back to a National. If the numbers for the National class are not there to drop back to, I will probably give the sport away even though I like it very much - Let's hope that it does not come to this.

Allan there was 5 Twins and 5 Nationals at the Vic Titles, four of the Nationals where on P's and one of the Twins.

Graeme, you are right - my mistake - but still not a lot of entries for at a Title event and a great track.
Congratulations on the new members - should be encouraging to the National class. :)

How many Nationals in the Victorian club now?

SIX Allan.

Thanks Rolf – six is a good show for the class.
It is hard to see why the National class has not grown like it has in the UK and USA as it offers great performance for the money; especially with the parts available from suppliers like Viper Racing (UK).

Allan at one stage in Australa we had more than 35 Nationals running but the people pushing the class moved on to other things, so the numbers dropped off. At present we have to many people running twins on a budget that they would be better off running a National. Have a look at the results of the Championship and see where the front running Nationals finished in the field. At the Vic Championship four of the five were home grown Yamaha's.

Yes, there were a lot of 250 Superkarts as this video shows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDfmfA9Qyes

Graeme, you and I are old enough to remember this and watching this video has brought it all back.
I can remember all the fun we had at this race and the great atmosphere of being at a Formula 1 event.
I guess it is hard for the current newer members to understand that Superkarting was quite a bit bigger than they see today and it is sad to see that. :'(

Hi guys.

As soon as we heard of the Maxxis issue we got Japan to make us some new SL6 compound tyres and than air freighted them in so that competitors would have them in time for next weekends Adelaide GP at Mallala. They have arrived so if anyone needs them we DO have stock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[quote author=Slick17 link=topic=1814.msg19584#msg19584 date=1349225561]
Hi guys.

As soon as we heard of the Maxxis issue we got Japan to make us some new SL6 compound tyres and than air freighted them in so that competitors would have them in time for next weekends Adelaide GP at Mallala. They have arrived so if anyone needs them we DO have stock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
Don't mind the Dunlop SL6, it's a good tyre. I got 2x USKGP "Eagles" while using the SL6. ;)
Might give it a go on my Stock Honda. I'll be calling you up Luke.

[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/News/110709/DSC01202.JPG[/img]
[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/photogallery/VIR%20Packing/125.JPG[/img]

Thanks Sam, this is actually a new development and slightly different to the old spec SL6. The tyre is a different shape to Maxxis but when people get there head around it I am sure they will go faster.
Always good to have fast pilots on them so would be happy to see a stock honda with you behind the wheel set some fast times or of course there is the option you send me a stock honda :P ;D

The regs for 2013 state the 125 NGB can use these four tyres in competition.

Dunlop SL6
Maxxis HG3
MG AZ Red
MOJO D2

Are these to remain the only tyres to be used for 2013, or is there a chance that the list may change or maybe even changed to "open". ?

AASA rules allow us to use any open tyre, so its only for CAMS that we have to use one of the above four tyres.
Since we support both AASA and CAMS, It would be great to use just one tyre of our choice to use through out the
year.