Something you Rotax Max Superkarters might want to think about in the near future is the tyres for your class. The CAMS rules at the moment say Dunlop SL6, Maxxis HG3, MG AZ Red and MOJO D2. The Maxxis HG3 is no more. Mojo M2 has been replaced by another tyre and only about 10 sets of M2 left at IKD. If IWT is right, the Dunlop SL6 is out of stock, maybe Luke can confirm this, which only leaves you with 1 tyre.
There are some good choises out there. For the budget racer, there is a tyre called the Maxxis HG1. Has a durometre reading of 62 where the HG3 was 60 and about $135.00 per set. Then I guess an open class tyre would go ok on them as well. We have some guys who like the MG Yellow at AASA events. I know Hoosier have some 5 inch tyres being tested by the AKA which fit into the SL tyre range so they should be good as well.
So the question is do you want your tyre choise to be "Tyres open must be 5 inch" or do you want to list them again so it has to be changed in a few years time?
It doesnt worry me 1 way or the other. We need sensible discussion about this not BS.
Comments12
Re: Tyres
Fact is, there are not really any cost controls in the 250's and unless your willing to invest a significant amount of time and money into a 250, you're not going to win races. If you want cost controls, then everything needs to be controlled. aka Aussie race cars, stock Honda. That way you can do it on a shoe string budget where you know the exact costs or spend a trillion dollars on team shirts, transporters, laser alignment systems etc etc but everyone still have the same equipment out on the track. Everyone says they love 250 twins because the class is open and you can do whatever you want.
How many people really used more than 3 sets of tyres at the nationals? Were there people putting stickers on for every race? Is it really going to close the gap?
Look at the cost differences currently:
Elf fuel $7L vs AVGas $2.5L - Whatever the argument is there 1-2hp in that
DEA engine vs 4DP Yamaha - $30+ for the DEA vs ~$10k for the 4dp. Again, whatever you want to argue the DEA has a HP and torque curve advantage.
Old chassis vs new chassis - Brand new Anderson $12k odd vs an 10+ years old rolling chassis, $3-4k? Who knows what the difference really is but one would have to say that after 10+ years of development a brand new chassis would have to have some advantage, I doubt any manufacturer would be releasing chassis' that go slower.
Tyres - Hoosies, Dunlop, Bridgestone...who knows how much stickier one is vs the other and how one suits the chassis more than another. Either way of the three choices there's a definite difference in cost.
Data loggers - Some have a temp gauges, some have fully sik F1 data loggers. Whatever you want to argue being able to look at your data after a race and effectively act on it makes a difference.
The you can go on about the different aero packages, driver weights, driver fitness & ability etc.
Re: Tyres
Remember just because one chassis can deal with running them for two races with pace does not mean that another chassis can.
For instance I don't see how the Zips could make it through a meeting with that rubber allocation unless they are running very slow times all day.
Sam is right, this really has no relevance at the end of the day. I say that because the DEA Anderson using three sets for the meeting is still going to beat the PVP or what ever with a 4dp on it.
Whats the difference after you limit rubber? oh about 20k. How much did we save by limiting rubber? about 800 bucks and the result is the same, the guys that are going to fall away because of cost are not going to be swallowed up by the price of rubber its the price of the engine and spares that kills it for most.
If you can't afford to run the class get a stock Honda like I did and race a class that suits you, don't try and get another class changed to suit you.
Re: Tyres
As I've said, I don't care what you do with limiting tyres, I'm moving on to other things now but I'm committed to one more national round this year.
What I've noticed over the last 6 and a half seasons with 3 really good drivers is that some tracks are much more demanding on tyres than others. There is no question that this is fact, not opinion. By good driver I mean someone that is in the top few and can lap consistently within 2-3 tenths a lap without dicing with competitors or lapping slow people.
The demanding tracks are,
Phillip Island
Eastern Creek
Winton
QR
Ruapuna
What makes them so demanding is if the aero is just a tiny percentage off front or rear, for those long radius corners it allows the tyre to slide and then over heat either loosing grip or blistering and in extremes, failing to rapid deflation. This murders the tyre sliding it at 200 kph, it doesn't just wear it a bit quicker!
Easy are
Mallala
Sandown (I was driving way back then for this one and Calder)
Calder
Morgan Park
We do 3 days of running normally at a Nationals meetings
Lets say 3 8 lap sessions on Friday
2 x 5 lap qualiy and a 8 lap race on Sat
2 x 8 lap and a 10 lap on Sunday
At the hard on tyres tracks we have always used our left over best tyres for Friday practice early on to debug the kart/engine and then scrub the sets of green/ new tyres and bead in extra set of pads just encase we have to throw in a set in-between races for the weekend making aero and mechanical grip changes prior to Qualifying.
If you chase aero and mechanical grip on old rubber then when you put new on the setup requirement changes and you risk an aero imbalance which can kill a front or rear tyre on the long radius corners in 2-3 laps. (this is what happened to us at race 1 Phillip Island last year and stopped us from getting 4 wins from 4).
The thinner the rubber is the less heat it holds and the less heat it has the less grip it has, FACT.
Yes you can slow down and not go through a corner at 110% commitment but a truly fast driver is not programmed to do this when he is dicing with the competition. It’s win or die trying within the helmet!
This does not mean that we destroy 4 new sets and throw them away after a meeting, we reuse and/or sell them afterwards for a heavily discounted price to someone that perhaps doesn’t need that 3 or 4 tenths a lap.
We used 3 new sets plus one set of 80% at Eastern Creek this year and we blistered 1 front and one rear coz we were casing aero on old rubber just prior to quail.
Had we not DNS race 1 and actually had a 4th new set then we would have used the 4th.
We had a DNS for race 1
We blistered a rear in race 2.
An extra $400 for a nationals race meeting for 1 extra set of tyres and then using them up at a clubby during the year vs buying new ones and wasting them on a club day through the year, hmmmm that’s a hard one.
There’s my “name them with the reasons why”.
Re: Tyres
The control does not include the brand or compound of the tyre just the quantity.
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I must be mistaken then Rolf but then again, what's this Quote from you on page 1?
"Looks like TYRES are the hot topic.
How many sets can I run?, what size?
Time to get serious girls, set a tyre type (Brand) like eveyone else in the WORLD.
2015 as the compliance date, God knows the arguments will last at least that long"
Re: Tyres
The comment on page one is correct and it's what I believe in.
The club at it's meeting decided to leave brand open but restrict quantity.
Remember, once the submission is written we vote on it before it goes to the NSA.
ALL Victorian 250 members will be made aware of it so they can voice their opinion and have the final vote.
Re: Tyres
Using the cost as a debate for 12 tyres seems to be "smoke and mirrors" as we know what the front running outfits are spending.....$400 less per Nationals round doesn't even put a scratch on the table......just saying....
I'm really done with all the crap, I want to hear and see people start putting their energies into what our sport actually needs for the future. There are more important things that need fixing other than personal agendas.
Ohhh, here's one left field.......let's make the Hoosier a "controlled tyre" for the 250 class, it will save plenty of money for all the competitors, they are only $320 RRP per set, much cheaper than other brands and equally as good. How does this suggestion smell?
Re: Tyres
What are you worried about anyway, I thought Stock Honda was the answer to everything?
Re: Tyres
So let me speak the devil in my head and ask if the 12 tyre proposal is so people can't use 16x DES (purchased from Ashley) and should purchase something harder to play it safe....like a DEM-DAU? (only available from the official Dunlop importer). Am I over thinking this?
Using the cost as a debate for 12 tyres seems to be "smoke and mirrors" as we know what the front running outfits are spending.....$400 less per Nationals round doesn't even put a scratch on the table......just saying....
I'm really done with all the crap, I want to hear and see people start putting their energies into what our sport actually needs for the future. There are more important things that need fixing other than personal agendas.
Ohhh, here's one left field.......let's make the Hoosier a "controlled tyre" for the 250 class, it will save plenty of money for all the competitors, they are only $320 RRP per set, much cheaper than other brands and equally as good. How does this suggestion smell?
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Hi Sam, I buy from Les but who knows? Yeah Hoosier would be interesting thats for sure, just make sure its more time than a week before the Nationals though ;) :D
Maybe limiting carb inlet boot inside diameters would be a better option to limit money spent. If you want to slow anything down, reducing the amount of air going in will always effect the performance. The only thing is ALL the engines will go slower by similar amounts.
But it's all bullshit anyway, asumming everyone has the same high level of race craft which they certainly don't, some people will tip buckets of money into their sport and get to the top, others will be really resourceful and get there for much less and others will kid themselves thinking they have similar equipment that can do the same job but it can't so nothing will ever change.
Rolf, I don't care anymore. Go for it.
Re: Tyres
Scott, go for what?
At the end of the day, and let's be CLEAR, it's up to the 250 drivers/owners who will make a decision on tyres or anything else that concerns those classes as far as the Vic club is concerned.
I will have a say (that counts) on the class that affects me..... Nothing else; as I will not and cannot vote on other classes.
As an individual however, I can have an opinion here on an open forum, which really accounts for nothing.
Re: Tyres
Shit, you paying that much for a set of Hoosiers Sam?? Lo
What are you worried about anyway, I thought Stock Honda was the answer to everything?
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RacerOz,
If the RRP of the Dunlop DES and DAU is less than $320 a set, then that's more reason why restricting to 12 tyres does not reduce the costs as an appropriate rational to this rule.
I'm just playing out a senerio as to why we could possibly only need 12 tyres all of a sudden.
FYI, every set of Dunlop kart tyres I've ever brought and lord know how many that is, have only been purchased via the official import channels.
I don't like technical regulations being written out of personal agendas, they must only be written for the benefit of the sport today and in future, regardless what fence you sit on.
As for Stock Honda, once my job is done with it I will be finding new challenges, right now the job is not done and I donate my energies, resources, time and finances toward it for the love of our sport.
Re: Tyres
[quote]Rolf, I don't care anymore. Go for it.[/quote]
Scott, go for what?
At the end of the day, and let's be CLEAR, it's up to the 250 drivers/owners who will make a decision on tyres or anything else that concerns those classes as far as the Vic club is concerned.
I will have a say (that counts) on the class that affects me..... Nothing else; as I will not and cannot vote on other classes.
As an individual however, I can have an opinion here on an open forum, which really accounts for nothing.
[/quote]
Hi Rolf, I didn't mean you, as in you being the one leading the way. Perhaps I should have said, 'go for it all you 250 chaps' instead ;)
Re: Tyres
The written word ( e mail style) can be interpreted in many ways, unlike face to face. ;)
I have nothing to gain by rules that affect a class that I am not involved with. (not that I race often)
I also do not sell, trade or deal in anything related to our sport so it's not driven by a dollar value. Nor do I get "deals" from suppliers.
In affect our "open" class would have to be the last bastion that has no controls, yet our sport (as are others) is suffering from a decline in numbers of constant and active participants.
Do we need or want to see the best of our sport only compete twice a year? Or do a few laps and DNF at a club round? (beacause they're "testing"?)what do those kind of published results say about our sport?
You guy's tell me as I'm (Club) trying to arrange RACE meetings that don't lose money and can be STAND ALONE (not get screwed for time) SUPERKART ONLY race meetings.
Sure we have said there are other classes but in reality we all want more bang for our buck.
Some have said three sets of tyres won't do anything to contain cost's but are still against it.
Over to you..............
ALL classes need to contain costs.
Gentlefolk?