As for the tyres .... no the tyres we have now in KA are DFM's not the DFH . They are incredibly soft and much more grippy than anything akin to the SL6 or MG red.
[color=purple]Took a while but found it. Dunlop DFM have a shore hardness of 55.2 fronts and 55.9 rears as per this CIK homologation documents.[/color]
[quote author=Ashley Zahl link=topic=2459.msg28278#msg28278 date=1455065447] Paul, they do look good thats for sure. Wayne's black and pink rotax looks very cool. I wonder if a submission will be put in for rotax and stock Honda to have the option to fit one soon? No, it won't come from me. [/quote]
Hi Ash I am definitely going to put a submission in regards to wing... More than half of our NGB members have them, everyone is on the same page.
So .... when this gets to the NSC the vote will be 2 against , SA and Vic, NSW for and a question mark over Qld's response .
Before you put the submission you really need to think about it ... you could lobby for it if you think you can change the unchangeable .... or take the correct fork in the road and don't bother submitting it because it will be the shit fight of the century that will kill any friendship your club may have enjoyed with the 2 southern states.
How's that for sage advice from an experienced elder statesman.
[quote author=Ian Williams link=topic=2459.msg28281#msg28281 date=1455073084] So .... when this gets to the NSC the vote will be 2 against , SA and Vic, NSW for and a question mark over Qld's response .
Before you put the submission you really need to think about it ... you could lobby for it if you think you can change the unchangeable .... or take the correct fork in the road and don't bother submitting it because it will be the shit fight of the century that will kill any friendship your club may have enjoyed with the 2 southern states.
How's that for sage advice from an experienced elder statesman. [/quote]
Ian are telling me that SA and Vic have already made there minds up in regards to a wing on a Superkart. Even before a submission has been presented to them, are we back in kindergarten? As far as I see it if people are against progress or even discussing a particular subject maybe they should do everyone a favour and leave the sport, so the rest of the sport can move forward. What a joke...
[quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg28282#msg28282 date=1455074993] As far as I see it if people are against progress or even discussing a particular subject [/quote] What is this progress that is being measured after say a 12month period being used in NSW? Is it; (i) More bums in seats due to allowing the wings? (ii) More cost to entry level Superkart class? (iii) Better track performance with wing installed? (iv) Greater separation between the "haves and have not" racers for the entry level controlled class?
Anyway, is anyone in NSW Rotax Max who has a wing going to race at a CAMS "Nationals Promoted" event? I only know of Dodgy and Vickers who run interstate and I don't think they run a wing anyway. So would it just be "Business as Usual" for NSW events even without a CAMS submission?
Another thing, don't Rotax Max owners now have other more pressing things to spend their pocket money on like the latest edition Rotax engine to stay front running? If adding a wing to the perception of staying competitive, doesn't that add even more expense to the people outside who are looking in?
[quote author=Sam Zavaglia link=topic=2459.msg28284#msg28284 date=1455076760] [quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg28282#msg28282 date=1455074993] As far as I see it if people are against progress or even discussing a particular subject [/quote] What is this progress that is being measured after say a 12month period being used in NSW? Is it; (i) More bums in seats due to allowing the wings? (ii) More cost to entry level Superkart class? (iii) Better track performance with wing installed? (iv) Greater separation between the "haves and have not" racers for the entry level controlled class?
Anyway, is anyone in NSW Rotax Max who has a wing going to race at a CAMS "Nationals Promoted" event? I only know of Dodgy and Vickers who run interstate and I don't think they run a wing anyway. So would it just be "Business as Usual" for NSW events even without a CAMS submission?
Another thing, don't Rotax Max owners now have other more pressing things to spend their pocket money on like the latest edition Rotax engine to stay front running? If adding a wing to the perception of staying competitive, doesn't that add even more expense to the people outside who are looking in? [/quote]
Sam it was never intended to get more bums on seats. 1/ was always an "OPTIONAL FITMENT" like all the different nose cones etc.... 2/ more cost to entry Superkart class? Please refer to 1 3/ Haves and have nots? Please refer to 1 4/ No performance advantages,I have proven this with a lot of data to show.
If you think a Superkart should look a sprint kart then go and join your local sprint kart club. I joined a Superkart club, and last I saw they all had wings on them...
[quote author=hjtrbo link=topic=2459.msg28287#msg28287 date=1455079266] Could someone please post up a photo of a well presented Rotax kart with a wing? [/quote]
[quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg28286#msg28286 date=1455078261] If you think a Superkart should look a sprint kart then go and join your local sprint kart club. I joined a Superkart club, and last I saw they all had wings on them... [/quote] If its a winged kart look your after you can do this without the use of an aerodynamic blade. [img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12669452_10153210232481455_7999425845126530432_n.jpg?oh=fa5e5d9ff09ebefafba27d192070b58b&oe=5727798E[/img]
Come on man, how can wing with spill plates not provide an advantage over one which has not.....especially open to ridicule since I have not seen any proposed spec detailing it's shape or size limitations.
Why do people in 125GB class run a wing.......just for looks?
Anyway, everyone who wants one in NSW runs it, if they don't travel interstate what difference does it make if it's not put into the National CAMS rules? If people around the nation within their clubs what it, it will get voted in.
Hi Rod I'll be putting specific dimensions in regards to side plates in wings submission. As Sam has pointed out Tim's kart looks fine, development and progress moves our sport forward. I think it's great when people such as myself or Tim take pride in our karts. The wing has always been an optional fitment, I can't push that point any harder.
Thanks, I'm on the fence with this one. Just so long as the weights don't change. Might as well extend it to Stock Honda. From what I have seen down the straight at Phillip Island, the more stuff at the back, and the bigger the nose cone, the slower they are by about 2km/h.
Nathan as you have pointed out correctly if you dial in downforce on a NGB you go slow.... I've have done so much testing with and without wing and results were the same. A stock Honda does look cool with a wing as Adam Stewart has shown.
[quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg28295#msg28295 date=1455092314] Nathan as you have pointed out correctly if you dial in downforce on a NGB you go slow.... [/quote] Really???? If you race around a bumpy track, you really think that down force or "kart stability" especially when confined to using a hard controlled tyre will slow you down? Look at it this way, if you can go through each corner at 0.1 sec quicker, around most circuits that's worth over a 1 sec per lap......which is killa in NGB. Around Wakefield its was easy 1.5 sec a lap, we proved that by using MG Yellow tyres vs Dunlop SL6 in Stock Honda. A rear wing, aggressive nose cone, chassis setup to suit with a driver of ability can almost achieve the same at least 1 sec per lap min.
Now take offense if you will I really don't care, but shouldn't the tests as you say that been done by driver/kart combos that actually know the difference between shit from clay, especially when it comes to a basic kart setups. You don't just back to back lap times with and without a wing, and using only one wing profile, you actually setup the kart dynamics with a wing trying many different profiles and different setups and then without the wing by someone who is actually a reputable, experienced and accoladed driver.
F*ck me, how many wing profiles has Stocky, Warren and I tried through the years........
Your dreaming if you think a knowable, experienced driver can't get an advantage using a wing on a 125NGB kart that is with a controlled hard tyre. Where does that leave the other "entry level inexperienced drivers" in the field......leaves them in the dust wondering why they are disadvantaged......and then again we go round in circles like we did with the 100ccNGB full bodywork saga.
Why don't you propose a flat sheet of fiberglass as a wing instead of using an actual wing profile if it's simply just for looks and not performance?
Since you want to give your opinion on my wing maybe a bit more knowledge on the wing positioning and setup might help. The majority of the wing is around 50% behind driver and a further 25% is blocked by my radiator, it has been deliberately setup in low position so it doesn't allow much wind to pass over or under it. So if it was setup like a 125gb yes it could help if you wanted it on a bumpy track but where it's position is a big no! Driving down the long straight at eastern creek you would be a fool thinking that having downforce in a ngb would make you faster...it's a long straight. I think driving it consistently is very important in getting good test data, James Burge did a 1:48.99(lap record) I was doing a 1:49.4
[quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg28297#msg28297 date=1455098774] I think driving it consistently is very important in getting good test data, James Burge did a 1:48.99(lap record) I was doing a 1:49.4 [/quote] Make yourself a better driver by taking your wing off and comparing yourself with the competition at Phillip Island or Mallala. ;)
Would it be wrong if your proposal specified a flat piece of fiberglass for a wing instead of a profile? This way the cost is reduced, anyone can make one if they wish for less than $30, more competitors with "better looking karts"......everybody and every aspect should then be satisfied?
Thought id give my two cents on this topic. Since it is something I do for a living and know very well.
Dennis, If you have created an aerofoil or even a surface that is exposed to the free stream flow that has zero impact on aerodynamic performance. Id love to know your secret, It could make me alot of money.
Your configuration might provide a negligible lap-time benefit, but someone else's configuration might lead to a 2 second advantage, thats why I love engineering.
I'm not saying that your configuration hasn't been tested. But what Sam is saying, very rightly so, is that allowing a wing, opens a huge can of worms. There is no doubt that the right person could easily achieve an advantage from an aerofoil on a NGB kart and that wouldn't necessarily be through an increase in downforce.
I agree, that IF (and thats a big IF) a wing was deemed to be a step forward for the class. Then a flat sheet of plastic or fibreglass, no more than 3mm thick with a AOA of +/- no more than 0.5deg would be a better solution and still provide a spot for your sponsors sticker.
Brendan its good to get your feedback, I haven't performed any magic. As said before "The majority of the wing is around 50% behind driver and a further 25% is blocked by my radiator, it has been deliberately setup in low position so it doesn't allow much wind to pass over or under it." So about 200mm is exposed to air on the right side..
Dennis, Air flows though my radiator, doesn't it also flow though yours? You would be very surprised where air goes when it comes to external aerodynamics, and it definitely wants to go towards the low pressure on the underside of your wing.
Your design is not the point of contention, its more how would you regulate the rules to prevent others from creating an advantage. Unless you restrict, the profile, angle, end-plates, and position (relative to what). I dont see how you can maintain parity.
Brendan in my submission I was planning on regulating and policing the wing with parameters you mentioned "the profile, angle, end-plates, and position" That way you can easy tell if someone dialled in any angle etc
How will you regulate the profile? unless its a NACA profile, your basically saying you can only purchase the main plane, from whoever made your first one.
Then what if I want to add a flat sheet as per Sams suggestion, that would then be illegal. At what tyre pressure do you measure the AOA? If your going to suggest 0deg and then someone changes their rear ride height, Id hate to see them disqualified.
By all means, right your proposal, Ill be interested to see the wording once its done.
Dennis, I think your proposal should specify that the 125NGB wing must be shaped like this;
x length ___________________________________ |___________________________________| x length
so that only one piece, top length "x" from leading edge to trailing edge is equal to the bottom length "x" leading edge to trailing edge, then it doesn't really matter what angle, position, height it is placed at, then no additional policing required to check everyone all the time for correct angles or shapes.
I believe this will give you your best chance to get your wing look through all the Superkart states, more people will then present their karts looking as you say like a "Superkart" because the cost and simplicity for anyone to do it is there and no one can say that one competitor has advantage or secret wing setup over another.
If you try to propose a wing like profile, I think your chances will be nil.......and then you won't get anything at a later date. Many years ago there use to be a NSC rule that said when a proposal is rejected, you have to wait something like at least 2 years before you can re-propose it again.
Go with a flat sheet mate, you may then get heard.
Here is a question ... if as those who propose the wing say, they only want a Superkart to "be" like a all the other Superkarts, then what about the gears ??
All other Superkarts have gearbox's , the NGB class does not. And was it not a topic of similar discussion a while back where many people said the NGB class should not even be in Superkarts because they do not have a gearbox ?? The forum administartor himself said as much just a week or two ago.
What are you wanting to push onto this class next , front wheel brakes ... full undertrays to go with the full Superkart styling ..... and , and , and .
The NGB classes are meant to be the introductory level to this what was once, a great sport. The more items you add the more there are perceptions of the haves and the have nots, and boom there goes your simple introductory level class.
Hi Rolf, in your opinion then, do you think the Victorian Club would oppose the optional fitment of a wing to a Rotax Max? Yes Superkarts have many issues coming up such as NO Avgas after this year as per the Australian Governments legislation.
Ashley ... are you not understanding of how you keep, nurture and maintain a "controlled" class that is there for the purpose of not being open to modification or interpretation.
Geez you guys don't get it at all. Do you not understand that these days most people who race are not wanting to be engineers/mechanics in any way, they just want to arrive and drive, then park it between events. To have a guy turn up at a race meeting and suddenly see a proliferation of wings and things on his opposition karts will be throwing cold water on his desire to continue.
[quote author=Ashley Zahl link=topic=2459.msg28308#msg28308 date=1455157101] do you think the Victorian Club would oppose the optional fitment of a wing to a Rotax Max? [/quote] The proposal may be that it's optional as Dennis and you have mentioned Ashley, just like the nose cone, sprint plastics vs Superkart nose, but everyone puts the Superkart nose cone not because it is easy or cheaper to fit but because it is an advantage to have it......why else do people race....to finish last in every race?
So if you are going to make something "optional" based purely because you want it for the "Superkart looks", wouldn't the first and foremost consideration for the proposal be that it doesn't pose as a performance advantage, otherwise you may as well call it mandatory......if you want to be competitive in your racing.......who doesn't?
So once again, if you want a winged look, do a setup like Tim's kart or propose a flat sheet that looks like a wing.
Controlled class?? Where is that? Let me se, the fitment of a wing is such a bad thing, but South Australian kart manufacturers can make special chassis that now control the class making all competitors 'sprint' chassis redundant?? How f#$kin hypocritical! Lets forget about sprint people crossing over, never gunna happen and the Viper, Scorpian and Woodgate chassis have put a stop to that. Now the wing, thats so bad........hasn't proven faster or slower...... must be poo pooed and made illegal. But wait, suddenly in Victoria nearly every max and stock honda suddenly has large rear side plates for race numbers. No rules govern there size, height, area, fitment positioning or construction, so i can run three foot high side plates stretching to the front of the seat, then because they actually work and aid in stability on fast sweeping corners (PROVEN) i run two rods between them to stop them flexing. Does that now constitute a wing?? Oh wait it doesn't have a main plane so its not a wing, but it does help the kart ??? , thats why everyone has one!
As Bob Jane once said 'it doesn't matter if its 1 inch or 8 inches, it's still rape!'
Therefore am i able to protest all karts fitted with these large sideplates at the Nationals? I mean 'sprint' karts don't have them so they must be illegal.
As Sam has correctly pointed out there are so many options in regards to front nose cone, has anyone got any data on those? Was there any wind tunnel testing performed to find out which has a bigger advantage or disadvantage, maybe we should ban those as well until the data can be analysed. We wouldn't want all the people streaming in from the sprint kart fraternity to be at a disadvantage straight away do we?
[quote author=Raceroz link=topic=2459.msg28312#msg28312 date=1455163058] Therefore am i able to protest all karts fitted with these large sideplates at the Nationals? [/quote] You can protest if they don't conform to the regulations but the regulations on this has been the same for 20+ years.....they do conform. The fact is they are easy and cheap to make/copy by anybody with a hacksaw, drill and some spare time. They cost virtually nothing out of the wallet so if that's your perception you can match it easy without any black magic stigma attached to it. Dalton and I never did the big number plates thing and we were still competitive.......imagine if you gave us an option to fit a profiled wing. :o [img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/579863_399542406771150_902643305_n.jpg?oh=2fddc6b622b9be7c525c76bd0a733fad&oe=572CC219[/img]
Dennis, There is a template your nose needs to fit through. Personally I put it out there for Stock Honda to run all CIK plastics but did what the majority wanted "Australia Wide" for the Stock Honda rules. Remember I had this for a long time but reluctantly needed a bigger nose if i wanted to remain competitive against others in my class. Same thing will happen with a profiled wing. It only took 3 karts back in 1994 with full bodywork to f*ck up the perception advantage and cost required to be competitive in 100NGB. [img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/545873_346947725370154_2034060520_n.jpg?oh=ef76656b7eda03095392f0f1a1678ec9&oe=57262084[/img]
[quote] in your opinion then, do you think the Victorian Club would oppose the optional fitment of a wing to a Rotax Max?[/quote]
Dunno, It's up to the guy's who run the class to decide I really don't care either way as I don't race the class.
MY OPINION is I prefer the look of the "end" (number plates) And do they offer an advantage? Probably?
I wanted a wing and went to 125 gearbox over the Rotax. And you can argue forever as to what advantage that may or may not bring.
Control classes will always have issues, good bad or indifferent. Interpretation is a wonderful thing.
Yes Victoria went down the "number plate" (Like S.A.) look as you can. The 100cc class did the same. Shall we drag in high back seats?
I agree with Scott's point of view re the chassis, perhaps what was missing in the rules there was the Homolgation like Stock Honda. We're NEVER going to get this right. The horse is out of the paddock and running.
[quote author=Rolf Greve link=topic=2459.msg28315#msg28315 date=1455168089] I agree with Scott's point of view re the chassis, perhaps what was missing in the rules there was the Homolgation like Stock Honda. We're NEVER going to get this right. The horse is out of the paddock and running. [/quote] And I had to fight like a bitch to get that chassis rule through for the Stock Honda class.
Dennis, Whatever I proposed for Stock Honda, I had to justify 10 times over its merit. The Stock Honda owners had to compromise in many areas but hey, it was either compromise or nothing.......well the rest is now history we got our class. Do you want to comprise or nothing?........Winged look or Nothing? Would you have a problem with flat sheet for a wing? YES or NO. If NO, why not? The justification you have put forward is for looks, I'm trying to help you get what you want.
Or to compromise, end plates AND wing. Not much in it with or without the wing. And looks closer to an inter than the JDM style NSW wing. My shit 3D drawings, but I hope you can picture it. [img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87339048/Assembly1.bmp[/img]
That's exactly what I was suggesting Nathan, it has all the looks with no performance or perception gain. If anyone wants to disagree on the advantage bit, they can make their own for around $50. The end plates are legal to use today anyway.
Scotty here's one for you ......... I did race a Scorpion in AKA sprint , won my club championship in Clubman Super heavy , a 4th place in the Masters Games running as a superheavy in the heavy class , and even shared the kart with Brandon Stillwell with a Rotax 125 on it and we took 3rd in a 100 lapper at Monarto .
I love the tall poppy syndrome we have going in this country, everyone just has to pick on a successful local product. It is built completely within the rules , designed and made locally , by locals , but still you are not happy.
Ian 'im not having a crack at you for building a better mouse trap, as you know i have one of your karts and just ordered another. (and may need a third!!) I'm just saying your comment about 'What's next' is funny. Someone one day had an idea, i can build a better one. Then another guy had to build one to compete....then a guy in Melb copied one...welcome to the arms race! So if anyone is serious about racing in the Southern states he now MUST have a Viper/Scorpian/Woodgate to even hope to be competitive. Couple that with an Evo Engine/Upgrade and you are looking at $7k minimum upgrtade from a sprint outfit to run near the front, but we are arguing over a wing's benefits based on added expense. What are we talking possibly $300/350, when most karts are already running 2/3rds of a wing anyway! Sorry they are just sideplates ;D
Isn't the proposed wing exactly the same 'innovation' as going to new custom made chassis??
The bigger issue is the sport and its grievances/personal vendettas that are holding back its growth. Apart from the NGB Nationals and SKA Nationals nobody wants to travel and race interstate anymore. Marquee races like the GP and Gold Nuggett are little more than glorified clubbies with minimal interstate participation where they used to be well attended.
I'm off to have a snickers, this diet makes me grumpy, sorry if i offended, Ian.
"Isn't the proposed wing exactly the same 'innovation' as going to new custom made chassis??
The bigger issue is the sport and its grievances/personal vendettas that are holding back its growth. Apart from the NGB Nationals and SKA Nationals nobody wants to travel and race interstate anymore. Marquee races like the GP and Gold Nuggett are little more than glorified clubbies with minimal interstate participation where they used to be well attended."
Comments40
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
They are incredibly soft and much more grippy than anything akin to the SL6 or MG red.
[color=purple]Took a while but found it. Dunlop DFM have a shore hardness of 55.2 fronts and 55.9 rears as per this CIK homologation documents.[/color]
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Paul,
they do look good thats for sure. Wayne's black and pink rotax looks very cool. I wonder if a submission will be put in for rotax and stock Honda to have the option to fit one soon? No, it won't come from me.
[/quote]
Hi Ash
I am definitely going to put a submission in regards to wing...
More than half of our NGB members have them, everyone is on
the same page.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Before you put the submission you really need to think about it ... you could lobby for it if you think you can change the unchangeable .... or take the correct fork in the road and don't bother submitting it because it will be the shit fight of the century that will kill any friendship your club may have enjoyed with the 2 southern states.
How's that for sage advice from an experienced elder statesman.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
So .... when this gets to the NSC the vote will be 2 against , SA and Vic, NSW for and a question mark over Qld's response .
Before you put the submission you really need to think about it ... you could lobby for it if you think you can change the unchangeable .... or take the correct fork in the road and don't bother submitting it because it will be the shit fight of the century that will kill any friendship your club may have enjoyed with the 2 southern states.
How's that for sage advice from an experienced elder statesman.
[/quote]
Ian are telling me that SA and Vic have already made there minds up in regards to a
wing on a Superkart. Even before a submission has been presented to them, are we back in kindergarten?
As far as I see it if people are against progress or even discussing a particular subject maybe they should do everyone a favour and leave the sport, so the rest of the sport can move forward.
What a joke...
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
As far as I see it if people are against progress or even discussing a particular subject
[/quote]
What is this progress that is being measured after say a 12month period being used in NSW?
Is it;
(i) More bums in seats due to allowing the wings?
(ii) More cost to entry level Superkart class?
(iii) Better track performance with wing installed?
(iv) Greater separation between the "haves and have not" racers for the entry level controlled class?
Anyway, is anyone in NSW Rotax Max who has a wing going to race at a CAMS "Nationals Promoted" event? I only know of Dodgy and Vickers who run interstate and I don't think they run a wing anyway. So would it just be "Business as Usual" for NSW events even without a CAMS submission?
Another thing, don't Rotax Max owners now have other more pressing things to spend their pocket money on like the latest edition Rotax engine to stay front running? If adding a wing to the perception of staying competitive, doesn't that add even more expense to the people outside who are looking in?
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
[quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg28282#msg28282 date=1455074993]
As far as I see it if people are against progress or even discussing a particular subject
[/quote]
What is this progress that is being measured after say a 12month period being used in NSW?
Is it;
(i) More bums in seats due to allowing the wings?
(ii) More cost to entry level Superkart class?
(iii) Better track performance with wing installed?
(iv) Greater separation between the "haves and have not" racers for the entry level controlled class?
Anyway, is anyone in NSW Rotax Max who has a wing going to race at a CAMS "Nationals Promoted" event? I only know of Dodgy and Vickers who run interstate and I don't think they run a wing anyway. So would it just be "Business as Usual" for NSW events even without a CAMS submission?
Another thing, don't Rotax Max owners now have other more pressing things to spend their pocket money on like the latest edition Rotax engine to stay front running? If adding a wing to the perception of staying competitive, doesn't that add even more expense to the people outside who are looking in?
[/quote]
Sam it was never intended to get more bums on seats.
1/ was always an "OPTIONAL FITMENT" like all the different nose cones etc....
2/ more cost to entry Superkart class? Please refer to 1
3/ Haves and have nots? Please refer to 1
4/ No performance advantages,I have proven this with a lot of data to show.
If you think a Superkart should look a sprint kart then go and join your local sprint kart club.
I joined a Superkart club, and last I saw they all had wings on them...
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Could someone please post up a photo of a well presented Rotax kart with a wing?
[/quote]
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
If you think a Superkart should look a sprint kart then go and join your local sprint kart club.
I joined a Superkart club, and last I saw they all had wings on them...
[/quote]
If its a winged kart look your after you can do this without the use of an aerodynamic blade.
[img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12669452_10153210232481455_7999425845126530432_n.jpg?oh=fa5e5d9ff09ebefafba27d192070b58b&oe=5727798E[/img]
Come on man, how can wing with spill plates not provide an advantage over one which has not.....especially open to ridicule since I have not seen any proposed spec detailing it's shape or size limitations.
Why do people in 125GB class run a wing.......just for looks?
Anyway, everyone who wants one in NSW runs it, if they don't travel interstate what difference does it make if it's not put into the National CAMS rules? If people around the nation within their clubs what it, it will get voted in.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I'll be putting specific dimensions in regards to side plates in wings submission.
As Sam has pointed out Tim's kart looks fine, development and progress moves our sport forward.
I think it's great when people such as myself or Tim take pride in our karts.
The wing has always been an optional fitment, I can't push that point any harder.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I've have done so much testing with and without wing and results were the same.
A stock Honda does look cool with a wing as Adam Stewart has shown.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Nathan as you have pointed out correctly if you dial in downforce on a NGB you go slow....
[/quote]
Really????
If you race around a bumpy track, you really think that down force or "kart stability" especially when confined to using a hard controlled tyre will slow you down?
Look at it this way, if you can go through each corner at 0.1 sec quicker, around most circuits that's worth over a 1 sec per lap......which is killa in NGB. Around Wakefield its was easy 1.5 sec a lap, we proved that by using MG Yellow tyres vs Dunlop SL6 in Stock Honda. A rear wing, aggressive nose cone, chassis setup to suit with a driver of ability can almost achieve the same at least 1 sec per lap min.
Now take offense if you will I really don't care, but shouldn't the tests as you say that been done by driver/kart combos that actually know the difference between shit from clay, especially when it comes to a basic kart setups. You don't just back to back lap times with and without a wing, and using only one wing profile, you actually setup the kart dynamics with a wing trying many different profiles and different setups and then without the wing by someone who is actually a reputable, experienced and accoladed driver.
F*ck me, how many wing profiles has Stocky, Warren and I tried through the years........
Your dreaming if you think a knowable, experienced driver can't get an advantage using a wing on a 125NGB kart that is with a controlled hard tyre. Where does that leave the other "entry level inexperienced drivers" in the field......leaves them in the dust wondering why they are disadvantaged......and then again we go round in circles like we did with the 100ccNGB full bodywork saga.
Why don't you propose a flat sheet of fiberglass as a wing instead of using an actual wing profile if it's simply just for looks and not performance?
Anyway........good luck with it fellas.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Driving down the long straight at eastern creek you would be a fool thinking that having downforce in a ngb would make you faster...it's a long straight.
I think driving it consistently is very important in getting good test data, James Burge did a 1:48.99(lap record) I was doing a 1:49.4
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I think driving it consistently is very important in getting good test data, James Burge did a 1:48.99(lap record) I was doing a 1:49.4
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Make yourself a better driver by taking your wing off and comparing yourself with the competition at Phillip Island or Mallala. ;)
Would it be wrong if your proposal specified a flat piece of fiberglass for a wing instead of a profile? This way the cost is reduced, anyone can make one if they wish for less than $30, more competitors with "better looking karts"......everybody and every aspect should then be satisfied?
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Dennis,
If you have created an aerofoil or even a surface that is exposed to the free stream flow that has zero impact on aerodynamic performance. Id love to know your secret, It could make me alot of money.
Your configuration might provide a negligible lap-time benefit, but someone else's configuration might lead to a 2 second advantage, thats why I love engineering.
I'm not saying that your configuration hasn't been tested. But what Sam is saying, very rightly so, is that allowing a wing, opens a huge can of worms. There is no doubt that the right person could easily achieve an advantage from an aerofoil on a NGB kart and that wouldn't necessarily be through an increase in downforce.
I agree, that IF (and thats a big IF) a wing was deemed to be a step forward for the class. Then a flat sheet of plastic or fibreglass, no more than 3mm thick with a AOA of +/- no more than 0.5deg would be a better solution and still provide a spot for your sponsors sticker.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
So about 200mm is exposed to air on the right side..
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Air flows though my radiator, doesn't it also flow though yours?
You would be very surprised where air goes when it comes to external aerodynamics, and it definitely wants to go towards the low pressure on the underside of your wing.
Your design is not the point of contention, its more how would you regulate the rules to prevent others from creating an advantage. Unless you restrict, the profile, angle, end-plates, and position (relative to what). I dont see how you can maintain parity.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
"the profile, angle, end-plates, and position"
That way you can easy tell if someone dialled in any angle etc
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Then what if I want to add a flat sheet as per Sams suggestion, that would then be illegal.
At what tyre pressure do you measure the AOA? If your going to suggest 0deg and then someone changes their rear ride height, Id hate to see them disqualified.
By all means, right your proposal, Ill be interested to see the wording once its done.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I think your proposal should specify that the 125NGB wing must be shaped like this;
x length
___________________________________
|___________________________________|
x length
so that only one piece, top length "x" from leading edge to trailing edge is equal to the bottom length "x" leading edge to trailing edge, then it doesn't really matter what angle, position, height it is placed at, then no additional policing required to check everyone all the time for correct angles or shapes.
I believe this will give you your best chance to get your wing look through all the Superkart states, more people will then present their karts looking as you say like a "Superkart" because the cost and simplicity for anyone to do it is there and no one can say that one competitor has advantage or secret wing setup over another.
If you try to propose a wing like profile, I think your chances will be nil.......and then you won't get anything at a later date. Many years ago there use to be a NSC rule that said when a proposal is rejected, you have to wait something like at least 2 years before you can re-propose it again.
Go with a flat sheet mate, you may then get heard.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
All other Superkarts have gearbox's , the NGB class does not. And was it not a topic of similar discussion a while back where many people said the NGB class should not even be in Superkarts because they do not have a gearbox ?? The forum administartor himself said as much just a week or two ago.
What are you wanting to push onto this class next , front wheel brakes ... full undertrays to go with the full Superkart styling ..... and , and , and .
The NGB classes are meant to be the introductory level to this what was once, a great sport. The more items you add the more there are perceptions of the haves and the have nots, and boom there goes your simple introductory level class.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Never have truer words been spoken.
You've nailed it.
Everyone move on. The sport has WAY BIGGER issues to face this year than a "look"
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
in your opinion then, do you think the Victorian Club would oppose the optional fitment of a wing to a Rotax Max?
Yes Superkarts have many issues coming up such as NO Avgas after this year as per the Australian Governments legislation.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Geez you guys don't get it at all. Do you not understand that these days most people who race are not wanting to be engineers/mechanics in any way, they just want to arrive and drive, then park it between events. To have a guy turn up at a race meeting and suddenly see a proliferation of wings and things on his opposition karts will be throwing cold water on his desire to continue.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
do you think the Victorian Club would oppose the optional fitment of a wing to a Rotax Max?
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The proposal may be that it's optional as Dennis and you have mentioned Ashley, just like the nose cone, sprint plastics vs Superkart nose, but everyone puts the Superkart nose cone not because it is easy or cheaper to fit but because it is an advantage to have it......why else do people race....to finish last in every race?
So if you are going to make something "optional" based purely because you want it for the "Superkart looks", wouldn't the first and foremost consideration for the proposal be that it doesn't pose as a performance advantage, otherwise you may as well call it mandatory......if you want to be competitive in your racing.......who doesn't?
So once again, if you want a winged look, do a setup like Tim's kart or propose a flat sheet that looks like a wing.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
As Bob Jane once said 'it doesn't matter if its 1 inch or 8 inches, it's still rape!'
Therefore am i able to protest all karts fitted with these large sideplates at the Nationals?
I mean 'sprint' karts don't have them so they must be illegal.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
As Sam has correctly pointed out there are so many options in regards to front nose cone, has anyone got any data on those?
Was there any wind tunnel testing performed to find out which has a bigger advantage or disadvantage, maybe we should ban those as well until the data can be analysed.
We wouldn't want all the people streaming in from the sprint kart fraternity to be at a disadvantage straight away do we?
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Therefore am i able to protest all karts fitted with these large sideplates at the Nationals?
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You can protest if they don't conform to the regulations but the regulations on this has been the same for 20+ years.....they do conform.
The fact is they are easy and cheap to make/copy by anybody with a hacksaw, drill and some spare time. They cost virtually nothing out of the wallet so if that's your perception you can match it easy without any black magic stigma attached to it.
Dalton and I never did the big number plates thing and we were still competitive.......imagine if you gave us an option to fit a profiled wing. :o
[img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/579863_399542406771150_902643305_n.jpg?oh=2fddc6b622b9be7c525c76bd0a733fad&oe=572CC219[/img]
Dennis,
There is a template your nose needs to fit through.
Personally I put it out there for Stock Honda to run all CIK plastics but did what the majority wanted "Australia Wide" for the Stock Honda rules.
Remember I had this for a long time but reluctantly needed a bigger nose if i wanted to remain competitive against others in my class. Same thing will happen with a profiled wing. It only took 3 karts back in 1994 with full bodywork to f*ck up the perception advantage and cost required to be competitive in 100NGB.
[img]https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/545873_346947725370154_2034060520_n.jpg?oh=ef76656b7eda03095392f0f1a1678ec9&oe=57262084[/img]
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
in your opinion then, do you think the Victorian Club would oppose the optional fitment of a wing to a Rotax Max?[/quote]
Dunno, It's up to the guy's who run the class to decide I really don't care either way as I don't race the class.
MY OPINION is I prefer the look of the "end" (number plates) And do they offer an advantage? Probably?
I wanted a wing and went to 125 gearbox over the Rotax. And you can argue forever as to what advantage that may or may not bring.
Control classes will always have issues, good bad or indifferent. Interpretation is a wonderful thing.
Yes Victoria went down the "number plate" (Like S.A.) look as you can. The 100cc class did the same.
Shall we drag in high back seats?
I agree with Scott's point of view re the chassis, perhaps what was missing in the rules there was the Homolgation like Stock Honda. We're NEVER going to get this right. The horse is out of the paddock and running.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I agree with Scott's point of view re the chassis, perhaps what was missing in the rules there was the Homolgation like Stock Honda. We're NEVER going to get this right. The horse is out of the paddock and running.
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And I had to fight like a bitch to get that chassis rule through for the Stock Honda class.
Dennis,
Whatever I proposed for Stock Honda, I had to justify 10 times over its merit. The Stock Honda owners had to compromise in many areas but hey, it was either compromise or nothing.......well the rest is now history we got our class.
Do you want to comprise or nothing?........Winged look or Nothing?
Would you have a problem with flat sheet for a wing? YES or NO. If NO, why not?
The justification you have put forward is for looks, I'm trying to help you get what you want.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/87339048/Assembly1.bmp[/img]
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
If anyone wants to disagree on the advantage bit, they can make their own for around $50. The end plates are legal to use today anyway.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I love the tall poppy syndrome we have going in this country, everyone just has to pick on a successful local product. It is built completely within the rules , designed and made locally , by locals , but still you are not happy.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Isn't the proposed wing exactly the same 'innovation' as going to new custom made chassis??
The bigger issue is the sport and its grievances/personal vendettas that are holding back its growth. Apart from the NGB Nationals and SKA Nationals nobody wants to travel and race interstate anymore. Marquee races like the GP and Gold Nuggett are little more than glorified clubbies with minimal interstate participation where they used to be well attended.
I'm off to have a snickers, this diet makes me grumpy, sorry if i offended, Ian.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
"Isn't the proposed wing exactly the same 'innovation' as going to new custom made chassis??
The bigger issue is the sport and its grievances/personal vendettas that are holding back its growth. Apart from the NGB Nationals and SKA Nationals nobody wants to travel and race interstate anymore. Marquee races like the GP and Gold Nuggett are little more than glorified clubbies with minimal interstate participation where they used to be well attended."
.
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