I was interested to hear Martin Brundle mention on the weekend that the F1 cars are now capable of pulling up to 6G’s under braking? Even he seemed to be amazed by this statement.
I watched Henrik’s Video of Hockenheim Race 2 which he won and was interested in his attached data.
His Mean Corner G’s = up to 2 G’s
His Mean Braking G’s = just under 2 G’s
(I am not talking a peak reaction reading but a consistent measurable reading.)
I have study many videos with data incorporated from different drivers/chassis/aero combinations and they seem to say that 2G’s is about the limit of the Superkart package. (aero/chassis/tyres)
I would be interested in other people's option at what they think is limiting factor for increasing performance of a Superkart given that you have the following variables accounted for:
• top class driver
• current top class chassis
• good technical team with adequate resources to make changes
Comments50
Re: Superkart Performance
Re: Superkart Performance
Drop a hard disk from 30cm high on a hard surface and its about 300G for 2ms.
Re: Superkart Performance
I see that Carlo has taken the path to more downforce but we are not seeing lap times that indicate that he has more grip than the others at the front.
Re: Superkart Performance
Carlo's looks like it's got the least drag, I don't know about downforce/grip.
Too much grip could cause chassis hop or put the it's energy/HP into the track instead of propelling the kart forward out the corners.
My opinion with [u]karts[/u] when road racing should be balanced and ride on top of the track surface, not into the track surface. Every driver to their own preference anyway and I don't think there is a one 'best' answer.
Re: Superkart Performance
I would be interested in other people's option at what they think is limiting factor for increasing performance of a Superkart given that you have the following variables accounted for:
• top class driver
• current top class chassis
• good technical team with adequate resources to make changes
[/quote]
Full-Time specific R&D (I'm mean real lab work and simulation R&D) into superkarts together with track time using proper test 'kart' drivers (not us weekend warriors worldwide) would be the major limiting factor.......which requires $$$$$$$ as Jay says.
This only exsists in F1 and some form limited in MotoGP......which both are working within a moving set of rules/guide lines to acheive what they do.
Re: Superkart Performance
It has interested me to see the many different types of bodywork on 250 Superkarts over the years and even currently, but even with the low profile look of the Anderson / PVP they still do not seem to make much of a difference to Lap times. For example, there is early Anderson style bodywork from the 90's, current Anderson/PVP and specials like Carlo - but the lap times are about the same.
ON the European scene, you have people like Francis using an early Zip nose and even covering the motor which I think he has gone away now and still no clear advantage. So, it would seem that as long as you add a basic aero package, it is good enough.
It would seem that aero package might not be the road to improved performance - then is it the chassis or maybe the tyre design?
If the tyre casing is not capable of sustaining more than 2G's before it distorts sufficient to lose grip, then maybe that is where we are now and without a better design, we are not going to see more performance.
If anyone knows this as a fact, I would be interested to hear.
Re: Superkart Performance
I am almost loathe to say, but I believe that within the current Superkart regulations (some [i]designed[/i] to moderate costs), there is very little improvement to be had and even with megga bucks.
The main factors are pretty well fixed either by regulation or consequences arising from regulation, these being:
1. Frontal area
2. Minimum Weight
3. Tyres
4. Engine
We all have our own ideas and try bits and pieces to improve and "get one over" on our competitors, but we are talking fractions and a good driver with a well optimised "off-the-shelf" package is realistically as good as it's going to get (unless those regulations are changed).
The major chassis manufacturers, put in as much work and effort as is dictated by their own competition (for sales) and bearing in mind what a small market the Superkart market is, this development tends to be on a suck-it-and-see basis. Having said that, there are plenty of customers willing to purchase "the latest upgrades", even before they are proven.
I must also say that over the years, any of the numerous privateer attempts at chassis/body design have come to nought, when compared to the major manufacturers efforts.
My question would be does it matter if there is little to be found in alternative designs. My pleasure is making what is basically an of-the-shelf product better than the next man's and that includes driver development as well as chassis and engine package. This also means that a driver without huge financial resources, can economically buy a package and compete on anything from local club to World stage, depending on his various abilities and finances and most importantly, in a stable environment.
Having said that 2 of my team drivers will be using (at least trialing) DRS systems at our upcoming British Championship round on May 5th at Silverstone. The principle is proven (by them) and we see a 2% improvement in top-speed on a 120mph straight (that might take 5Hp of extra engine power). Drag in a straightline is after all . . . . just a drag!! ;D (OK some clever arse may comment that that drag also contributes in a crertain degree to stability ;) ).
The penalty is 2-3kg, but in the case of these drivers, it's just 2-3kg less lead!!.
The limiting factor may be tyres, but I'm by no means sure of that. Since Trevor set his Silverstone lap record in 2006 we have an extra 7Hp in engine power, close ratio gearbox, latest low drag bodywork and "stickier" tyres. However, at the last meeting on that track in 2011, nobody could get within a second of that time. My own conclusion is that stickier tyres are both an improvement (in cornering and braking) and a hinderance (everywhere else), specifically in application of power out of the corner and rolling resitance. Wind direction and strength is also a massive factor.
Just my 2 cents!
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
My suspicions are that the tyres are the most limiting factor but I have no hard evidence for that.
There are a few track records here in Oz just recently broken and it has had me guessing for a while why they had not been broken earlier since the HP has been going up by a reasonable amount for a while now.
So, does the Viper DRS system work with the hand blocking a certain hole or is it the trailing edge of the Helmet Visor as the wind speed pulls on the chin strap ...? :) :) :)
Best regards
Allan.
Re: Superkart Performance
It's an electronic variation of wing angle . . . . . but look, I've already said too much ;)
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
I must also say that over the years, any of the numerous privateer attempts at chassis/body design have come to nought, when compared to the major manufacturers efforts.
[/quote]
Well then, odds are its time for a change ;D
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Hi Allan
It's an electronic variation of wing angle . . . . . but look, I've already said too much ;)
Best Regards
Ian :)
[/quote]
Ian,
You can say all you like using a servo motor or whatever......it's illegal here for as long as I can ever remember in our rules. Hope I didn't bust anyones bubble with DRS in mind. ;D
[IMG]http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff482/samzavaglia/DRS1.jpg[/img]
Re: Superkart Performance
Also:
1. Can be used right from the warm-up lap
2. No activation zones, just whenever you feel like it
3. You don't have to be within 1 second of the competitor in front
4. You can use it in the rain
Best Regards
Ian
Re: Superkart Performance
Servo motors ?? Why not just a solenoid and a button or a vacuum generator with vacuum diaphragm?
I would love to see a DRS zone - it would give the spectators more reason to drawn comparison to Formula 1 than they do at this time and should be easy to police; a bright red LED light on the wing when it is operated - everyone could see when DRS is activated - officials and spectators - bring it on!
And surely cost will not be the reason for exclusion ... not with new international motor prices being in the 20K mark.
We really have to embrace technology or be left behind - Just have a look at any sports bike compared to a 1970 design and you will see what I am saying. Even with the retro look of the 70's, they still use current technology for the mechanical parts.
Re: Superkart Performance
Same as in the 100NGB rules did not allow for the pipe length to be altered while kart is in motion....
We don't have the technology like F1 to to have automatic zones and 1 sec gap enable etc.
Personally, I think it will make sweet FA difference in Superkart results anyway. F1 is developing massive amounts of downforce at their speeds and their lap times is all about counting the 1/100's of a sec.
If you ditch your rear wing all together for the straights, how much faster is your superkart going to go in straight line, how much is that gain worth per lap in a Superkart? FA.
A well setup, tuned and driven kart will beat the perceptions/gadgets everytime.
Most of all, we don't have a complete field of the world's best skilled drivers like in F1 where everyone is almost equal and a small gain will alter results.....come back to reality, we are Superkart, low cost for the entry level long circuit motor racing hobbist.
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As far as 20k engines go, I can't think of that many on the track here in Aus, most twins on the grid could be had for under 20k as a complete package.
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I am sure if it was an option to any of the top drivers to have a 4.6kph advantage at the finish line, they would take it.
Sam, yes they are gadgets and I agree that we are hobbyist in the purest form but with all the FUN which that entails …… Boys with their Toys, yep! :o :D
Re: Superkart Performance
Sorry if i missed others, just saying from what I saw.
Jamo breaks the lap record, wins races.
Carlo never finished in top 3 all weekend. I can't recall Carlo ever passing me on top speed all weekend until close to turn 1, same with Anton and Jason Smith, so a 2% or 4kph top speed whatever.... wouldn't help change positions or pass across the important finish line.
What did I say about a well setup and driven kart over top speed? I just made that comparison for Phillip Island, LONG STRAIGHTS, fewer technical corners as opposed to other circuits.
Better keep my mouth shut now, giving too much away. :D
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In a perfect world though, I say, bring it on. Superkarting has very open rules and is renowened as being a class where people can 'do their own thing' and experiment.
As Sam says, it's all about corner speed anyway. If you go into, around and come out of a corner 5km/h faster than someone who goes through the corner 5km/h slower but goes 10km/h faster down the straight...guess who's going to win the race...
Re: Superkart Performance
Honestly can you imagine someone hard into there own race in their class thinking about pushing a button to flatten a wing down, changing gear and meanwhile a pack of twins are coming through!!! Its bad enough already.
Re: Superkart Performance
it's all about corner speed anyway. If you go into, around and come out of a corner 5km/h faster than someone who goes through the corner 5km/h slower but goes 10km/h faster down the straight...guess who's going to win the race...
[/quote]
Hi Mike
I thought that would be fairly obvious . . . . . .
The man who goes through the corner 5km/hr faster and goes 10km/hr faster down the straight . . . . or is there some sort of rule in Australia that says you can only be fast in a straight line or round a corner, but not both!! ;) Seems that is what Sam implies??
We don't have that rule either :D
That's the position my 2 guys are in and top notch intelligent drivers who can make a judgement, walk, talk, chew gum and press a button all at the same time.
As Scott says, there are those who can't ;D So if you legislate for the lowest common denominator, you ban the system . . . . simple as. We'll just have to wait and see on that one.
You guys do have a genuine issue, that you race twins with much slower classes. Over here we only mix twins with 250 Nats.
"Wake up and breathe the air"
The button is mounted on the steering wheel in a comfortable position and activated by the thumb, without releasing or changing grip, on the non-gearchange side (foot clutch . . . of course!!). The default position of "full wing" is with the button realeased, so if the driver forgets to press the button, no issue, he's just 2 mph slower at the end of the straight. "Release" will become natural and associated with "brake". I can't remember when one of my drivers last forgot to brake 8)
And finally . . . . before anyone starts with that blar-de-blar about "what if it fails", then it just joins the list of the 100's of other components that can fail and that drivers deal with every day, or perhaps we should go solid tyres and autolube as well ;)
it is after all, only an idea . . . . at least for another 4 days, anyhow 8)
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
[u]I'm not for or against it[/u], I'm just sensing some concerns in our arena, god knows I got all the wires, switches and gadgets on my kart..... :D
Lets just say it's electronic and a button on the steering wheel. Let's just say the driver hits the button, wing is laid flat, when driver releases the button the wing gets jammed or servo motor stuck, phunatic valve stuffs up whatever.......let's just say it's Turn 1 at Eastern Creek or Phillip Island.....high speed turns where areo is required in that turn at that speed.....the driver is going to pinball himself and/or others off the track when it catches him by surprise.
So unless it was a controlled design and manufacture, god only knows people have trouble keeping their wheels on let alone some dodgy backyard areo contraption system that will catch the driver by surprise if/when it's doesn't release......all for what I beleive is virtually no gain in a Superkart.
Re: Superkart Performance
Not criticising, not even saying you are wrong, just you are viewing this with a different eye because it's new.
Have you never seen a race won by a thousandth of a second, a tenth of a second or a second?
These guys are already at the front, they are fast in the bends, they are latest and hardest on the brakes, they are quickest on the straights, if it gives a tenth a lap, that will be great. I spend countless hours looking for engine improvements that will give a tenth!!!
We have scrutineers that will make a decision based on safety which can override any rule if they thing anything is just "dodgy" or "unsafe"
Best Regards
Ian
Re: Superkart Performance
Re: Superkart Performance
So what's the difference anyway, if no one has it, no one gets the advantage, everyone gets DRS installed, still no advantage. So what's the point of it now?
Don't get me wrong as I said, I'm not for it or against it......whatever rocks your boat, one person installs it, I guess I'll install it too..... ;)
I was just saying it's not allowed in the rules and finding reasons why it was put in there to begin with.
I might go and install a varible pipe length on the twin. ;)
Re: Superkart Performance
So what's the difference anyway, if no one has it, no one gets the advantage, everyone gets DRS installed, still no advantage. So what's the point of it now?
[/quote]
So let's give everyone rock hard tyres that last the season and brake pads that last forever, and limit the compression and ignition timing and power output. What will it matter as we'll all be the same.
Personally I want my drivers to have the best possible within the regulations, I want to explore every nook and cranny of every slightest possibility. That's what floats my boat ;
and when everyone copies me . . . . . I'll find something else.
Best Regards
Ian :)
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I want to explore every nook and cranny of every slightest possibility. That's what floats my boat ;
[/quote]
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It was PERFECTION though and good viewing whilst I had lunch ;)
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Just checking the moderator was in the house still circling the premises. :D
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Mortadella sandwich never tasted soo good :)
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Some try and work around this natural phenomina with varied sucess.
Attached is a photo of three people doing just that.
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I thought most would appreciate a 'floating boat' of that quality.
Just checking the moderator was in the house still circling the premises. :D
[/quote]
E-mail it Sammy . . . . . . I must have been sleeping ;)
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
Just for completion, the DRS boys both scored a second place (1 in the first race and the other in the second) and both broke Trevor's long standing lap record.
However, the winning kart was not DRS equipped.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
If not, someone in that stable needs to pull their finger out.........mechanic or driver? :D
Re: Superkart Performance
Was the winning kart without DRS Viper CR250 equipped?
If not, someone in that stable needs to pull their finger out.........mechanic or driver? :D
[/quote]
Or both ;) . . . . . . that's the fun and challenge of it!!
Let's hope things can be reversed in Ireland at the end of May. Back from PI and straight on to Bishopscourt!!
Here's some links to the boys "on acid" Go Pro Videos. The first 2 are Ben (21) the second 2 are Toby (4):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08iHVfMs2WM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6EAbcTWIrA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Az54MmbKuI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8UXJoL5qeE
Trevor is number 11 . . . he had the worst weekend, which started with an airlock induced seize, qualified 3rd and went downhill from there!! You know when they say don't ask . . . . . well . .. don't ask!! OK race 1 - piston broke. Race 2 - piston broke!
Best Regards
Ian :)
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Re: Superkart Performance
Re: Superkart Performance
How much faster down the shoot was the DRS?? WORTH A TENTH OR TOO??
[/quote]
Paul,
Would depend if they were racing around the clothes line or not.
Re: Superkart Performance
Difficult to know exactly, but Ben's DRS was "out of action" for the second race, locked on full wing and his speed was a couple of mph down on the straight from his brother.
He certainly said he could feel the difference.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
Difficult to know exactly, but Ben's DRS was "out of action" for the second race, locked on full wing and his speed was a couple of mph down on the straight from his brother.
[/quote]
Well fancy that, especially after I memntioned about the driver safety if the wing got stuck on full flat without the driver knowing. I guess the Aussie rule was put there for a purpose all those years ago.......... ;)
As I said, I'm not for or against a DRS system but proberly we are better off not allowing it....just saying.....no offence intended.
Re: Superkart Performance
Re: Superkart Performance
[quote author=Viper Racing UK link=topic=1693.msg17476#msg17476 date=1336563070]
.....no offence intended.
[/quote]
And none taken!!
In truth this was probably missed when producing UK rules based on the CIK rules which also ban it. Who knows if it will mysteriously appear in next years regs. I don't believe that the wing sticking on full flat is as onerous as Sam suggests, particularly as he goes on to say he views the effect as negligible anyway!! you can't have it both ways . . . . that's just Sam being Sam ;)
The 2 guys like it and believe in it, that's for sure.
Matt thanks for your comment. Hopefully see you and all the others in a few weeks time.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
Hopefully Ian?? You mean, "see you all in a few weeks time", yes?? :) ;)
Re: Superkart Performance
Matt thanks for your comment. Hopefully see you and all the others in a few weeks time.
Hopefully Ian?? You mean, "see you all in a few weeks time", yes?? :) ;)
[/quote]
If my health holds out, if I don't get run over by a bus, if I haven't spent all my money on loose women and beer, if I don't miss the flight and if I get all my "projects" finished in time . . . . I'll see you all in a few weeks.
Australian Champonship winner 2012 on the dyno? and not a DRS in sight 8) :D :D :D
[IMG]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x26/Viperracinguk/buggy1.jpg[/img]
[IMG]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x26/Viperracinguk/buggy3.jpg[/img]
[IMG]http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x26/Viperracinguk/buggy2.jpg[/img]
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: Superkart Performance
I don't believe that the wing sticking on full flat is as onerous as Sam suggests, particularly as he goes on to say he views the effect as negligible anyway!!
[/quote]
If your at front running pace and expecting a rear wing going into Turn 1 at Eastern Creek or Phillip Island in a twin, I'll bet you will not stay on the black stuff if expecting the downforce of the rear wing. Of course if there was no wing and the driver knows that, I'm sure the attack on the corner is completely different. ;) If the DRS system fails, how is the driver suppose to know.....eyes in the back of their head???
As for negligible effect, that is my guess/opinion in regards to overall lap time with or without the DRS. The gain is only going to give a few extra kph in the long straights equalling stuff all. The good wings currently out there are quite effecient in the balance of downforce vs drag.
Re: Superkart Performance
Re: Superkart Performance
Chill out Sam . . . . . just poking ;)
[/quote]
Chill out......now you got me going Ian, a big heavy can of Top Turd for you at Phillip Island. :D
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;D
Re: Superkart Performance
Keep him the one your bringing to Winton Sam.
;D
[/quote]
Ah maturity gentlemen.
Re: Superkart Performance