I know others will say that this will acheive nothing but....
ALL clubs get together to vote in people that WILL do someting FOR the sport. Other than that what you have sugested is about our only options.
A boycott of all meetings would also be s good way to show numbers of thoes that are dis-satisfied with the leadership(or lack of) within the AKA.
"...A boycott of all meetings ..."
would hurt the club running the meeting, first and formost. Is there an option within the Constitution for a vote of "No Confidence" ? Before proceeding down this path there would need to be capable and acceptable alternatives to fill the void.
Hmmm, a tempting option . . .
So what is your problem with the AKA ?????
You must hate the police because you once got a speeding fine, and you hate the local council because you got a parking fine - but lucky for them there is no internet forum for you to voice a stupid tirade .........
If you have a problem with something SPECIFIC let's hear it ??? To say the entire organisation is corrupt or inept is very far reaching and totally un-called for.
If you involved a lawyer, the police or the ACCC today, what evidence have you got that the sport is in chaos ?? Race meetings are happening all across the country, there is ongoing promotion and as far as I am aware no-one has been arrested for doing anything wrong.
Please .. I ask again ... if you can name a specific problem then we will all go ask the questions to get it fixed. If you have nothing definite then how about stop crying wolf as it paints the entire sport in a bad light.
To show the AKA that the "people" are concerned they need to flex their muscle to remove those that are responsible for the current situation. Until those at the top know that their position is at risk of they don't perform will ensure proper action is taken to remove them, unlike now, they know they can act as they do because there is NO threat to their position will ever come from the masses. Haaving a president that has been found guilty as a individual in the Fed court on a kart related matter is testimonial to this fact.
In reagrds to A] letter to CAMS, properly worded with evidence of any allegations may do some good, even if it just makes the author happy he/she did something, it may even work????
B] This could happen as there is evidence out there of constitutional failures/breaches, but who pays for this as not sure AKA will finance a action against themselves?? but there are avenues to follow that cost nothing ie Dept Fair Trading or alike. But this action wont remove anyone but may ensure proper procedures are adhered to?
C] Missed an opportunity to ring Channell 9 when the ACCC price fixing decision but that was a state issue but could have embarrased national into action. Plus you would risk action against yourself for bringing the sport into disrepute etc etc, and if the proposed new chnages in this area get in the AKA may be able to get to individuals much easier than they once could have.???
D] If any action like this was to occur you would need a good unuion leader, but he/she would be risking the wrath of the AKA exec.
E] Prokart or a new organisation? are options, many individuals i the Sydney metro area could take that up on their own, vote with their feet its called, and go to Prokart/NKA etc, but the effect would be slow and we have seen how the AKA react to perceived threats, but are wrking towards a better relationship. Star up afresh is a option an can be done, but would take a coordinated effort and in unison, clubs whilst maybe secretly willing will be hard pressed to take that initial step to move away and risk being a shag on a rock!!. Its only a matter of getting insurance and thats easily done and you can go yor own way, sounds simple and it can be, but its a big step. But the risk is if taken by all in 3 -5-7- years will we be back here saying the same thing???
F] Sit back and do nothing, which sadly is the norm in this sport, like many, may be what will happen, sadly. We need to get ppl more involved but we saw on the discussion page when you discuss touchy subjects, like the CMS, what you face if you try and challenge the organisation. But if eneough ppl attend club meetings those that "attack" these people willing to push for change will sit down and shut up, no different to the bully in the school playground, if they get stood up to and are backed up they back off. No different here.
First and foremost, a change to the consitution to change how the executive is elected. ie. elections carried out at the club level, giving more say to individual karters rather than leaving it in the hands of a select few. It would also help eliminate the situation where clubs put forward a particular person who may not be highly regarded by the other members of the executive.
I suspect if the karters were electing the executive, the majority would remain in office, there'd only be a few heads rolling.
As they say, play the ball, not the man. The problem is the general lack of consultation, and this is as much a product of the deficient operating structure of the AKA as it is any one individual involved in it.
Ian,
You only have to look at the attempt to shut the books to the membership to see how hard it will be to get any evidence to go any further with any complaint. You only ahve to look at what happens to individuals who ask questions to even get alook to see if ANYTHING has been done wrong. NSW made that mistake by putting their price fixing motion IN WRITING for all TO SEE so now everything is shut down that can be used against them if it goes that way.
It may just be that this sport will NEVER reach its full potential because those at the top just wont let it.
Ian Williams said:So what is your problem with the AKA ?????
You must hate the police because you once got a speeding fine, and you hate the local council because you got a parking fine - but lucky for them there is no internet forum for you to voice a stupid tirade .........
If you have a problem with something SPECIFIC let's hear it ??? To say the entire organisation is corrupt or inept is very far reaching and totally un-called for.
If you involved a lawyer, the police or the ACCC today, what evidence have you got that the sport is in chaos ?? Race meetings are happening all across the country, there is ongoing promotion and as far as I am aware no-one has been arrested for doing anything wrong.
Please .. I ask again ... if you can name a specific problem then we will all go ask the questions to get it fixed. If you have nothing definite then how about stop crying wolf as it paints the entire sport in a bad light.
You guys are wasting a lot of energy for no action. I have read most things said here and elsewhere and it is all a lot of smoke and mirrors but nothing anyone could hang their hat on as a legal argument and say " this person has done XYZ on such and such a date and we suffered ABC as a consequence".
I will say it again, a factual "he did this" or "he got paid for that" is required before anyone does anything. I myself am an AKA state president, and every day I see dozens of volunteers helping this sport to operate. Yes we run on a huge volunteer base and in most cases these people do what they think is the right thing. Almost all of these volunteers are untrained in whatever jobs they do in karting, that's the nature of volunteers. They may get in some situations over their heads, they may think they are helping when they are actually not, but for the most part your open-ended threats againts individuals and charges of corruption and malpractise read more like a bad newspaper report than any sort of need to take action against anybody.
I would ask everyone who chooses to reply to this .. what do you do in your part of the country to help run this sport ?? Is anyone on a club committee or a state council, and in so doing that job have you any evidence of actual wrongdoings by anybody ?? Do you help wherever it is needed or do you sit at your keyboard and throw hand-grenades just for the nuisance factor of it all ??
I see a lot of silly mistakes and errors of judgement made every day, but they are not life threatening nor so financially disastrous as to lead to the total ruin of our sport. We get past the little hiccups and as I said earlier the sport continues to exist. Maybe you have ideas of karting being bigger than the V8's in this country - well if no-one has told you before I am now - that's never going to happen.
And honestly, what will writing letters to CAMS do ?? If you have nothing to say beyond causing mischief then as a senior CAMS person myself I can say they will just politely say " OH that's nice" and get on with their own day to day operations.
So that then does answer your item D. We should not all sit back and do nothing, instead we should all get out there and assist at the very least at your local kart club or track. Now there's a novel idea - get out of the house and help !!!!!
looks like we will always be a amateur sport with a attitude like this eh??? no one here is saying that a great many ppl do what they can for this sport thats is not appreciated, we rely on volunteers. what we are saying those thay occupy the big position have to have some sort of professionalism.
You know it difficult to come here and name ppl for breaching laws setc Col up for defamation claims so we don't name ppl but they KNOW who they are.
Ian I know you do your bit, but you don't know what I do and have done for this sport for the past 17 years , yes haven't been a state prese, but been on committees etc etc officiated etc etc done my bit, and my current position I can't offer any more, much like 99% of us we do what we can with the time we have. And thats a problem with amateurs however well meaning will keep this sport down if we are HAPPY with that then so be it. BUT at least run by the rules at the verry least and not pretending to be professional.
There is no INDIVIDUAL really to balme its a COLLECTIVE effort but NO one has the courage to stand up and say yep I am responsible not even the then NSW president and Nat president could stand up in court and say being the president I am responsible, he had to blame ignorance of the law!!! where does the buck stop????
Just look at the turnover in this sport 90% are gone in 3 years on average AKA figures, no one stays in the spoprt long enough to get involved at any level. Just look at your own club, look 3 years ago, then 5 years ago and even 10 and see how many fit into those brackets. its all too simple to get out of the sport, only the devoted ones stay around.
Sadly Ian if you are a state president and NOT seeing what I am you better look harder, maybe take on the channel 10 show idea and go undercover at meetings play a member of the public and ask questions and see what responses you get you might learn something????
"...There is a system in place with AKA, USE IT..."
Damien, therein lies the problem. The average karter at club level has to use the A1 process. It would appear that the same does not apply from the top back down. A number of people have attempted to use the correct procedure to get answers to pertinent and very relevant questions. Some of these have found themselves targeted, vilified and excommunicated.
The current proposal to amend the Constitution is attempting to legitimise the actions that have been done in the past - keep the books closed and secret. It is THIS particular facet of the upper hierachy that posters here are trying to change. Can you honestly say that you are 100% happy with all of the decisions that have been made, and the uses your money has been put to? If we leave this crap alone, eventually we won't be able to get on with karting.
And finally, thank you for your constructive contribution to making this forum easier to read, and understand. Sieg Heil!!
You do ask very leading questions ..... but as you walked into this one sight unseen here it is ....... my own club has gone from 10 or 12 members between the years 2002 and 2009 up to in excess of 150 today !!!!
How can this be if we live on your doom and gloom planet ?? Well back in 2002 the club lost its track and so the members left for other clubs that could offer them a facility. But 2 years ago the club bought land and has since built a new track, for which it got a $100k loan from the AKA track development fund. Now if the AKA is bad to the core then how can they afford to do this ??
Just this week a similar loan of $75k went to a far north Queensland club, again a badly run organisation would have no money to do this with but the AKA seems to manage it.
Now how's this for another nail in the coffin that holds many peoples attitude .. I am a kart dealer !! I have been doing this full time for over 35 years. From the small rock under which I crawl on a daily basis , if the sport was not healthy then I'd be out of business and looking for a different line of work. But contrary to many opinions the sport is going along fine. For sure Karting has had its up and downs like anybody else, but the absolute vitriol that spews from the forums towards our controlling body from a very few persons is just so far wide of the truth it defies belief.
And in case you missed the message on your first day here, karting IS an amateur sport. Worldwide it is no different, it is a mom and dad and the kids sport, it is a hobby first and foremost to 99.5% of its participants. A small fact you may like to ponder is that the UK has a few over 3,500 licensed karters as against the 5,500 in the AKA - and they have TRIPLE our population. Now who is doing a better job ??
I will say this again -- do not place everyone and everything to do with the AKA in the same rotten egg basket. If you have a complaint then lay it - I will even deal with it if you private message me ?? But stop laying a blanket of doom over the sport as a whole, you are abusing your right to free speech by hiding behind rumour and innuendo.
Facts man ... give us facts and we may just listen to you.
Ian says ...>>>>>>>for which it got a $100k loan from the AKA track development fund. Now if the AKA is bad to the core then how can they afford to do this ??
Bloody simple Ian ... the money is and has been contributed over a number of years solely by kart racers and it goes in a TRUSTEE account belonging to the 7 State Associations who all have equity in the trust and it does NOT and will never belong to the AKA ...if we of the past had not ensured this was set up like this then we would have seen all those funds dissappear into car park bitumen ,noise meters and other dodgy ventures that would have been and were of no benefit to the stakeholders the contributing karters or their clubs facilities ............. !!!!!!
Oh how short memories we have !
Ian Williams said:A small fact you may like to ponder is that the UK has a few over 3,500 licensed karters as against the 5,500 in the AKA - and they have TRIPLE our population.
werent there over 10,000 in the 90s? perhaps lets stop patting ourselves on the back, and look at why that number has fallen so much.
Comments12
I know others will say that this will acheive nothing but....
ALL clubs get together to vote in people that WILL do someting FOR the sport. Other than that what you have sugested is about our only options.
A boycott of all meetings would also be s good way to show numbers of thoes that are dis-satisfied with the leadership(or lack of) within the AKA.
"...A boycott of all meetings ..."
would hurt the club running the meeting, first and formost. Is there an option within the Constitution for a vote of "No Confidence" ? Before proceeding down this path there would need to be capable and acceptable alternatives to fill the void.
Hmmm, a tempting option . . .
So what is your problem with the AKA ?????
You must hate the police because you once got a speeding fine, and you hate the local council because you got a parking fine - but lucky for them there is no internet forum for you to voice a stupid tirade .........
If you have a problem with something SPECIFIC let's hear it ??? To say the entire organisation is corrupt or inept is very far reaching and totally un-called for.
If you involved a lawyer, the police or the ACCC today, what evidence have you got that the sport is in chaos ?? Race meetings are happening all across the country, there is ongoing promotion and as far as I am aware no-one has been arrested for doing anything wrong.
Please .. I ask again ... if you can name a specific problem then we will all go ask the questions to get it fixed. If you have nothing definite then how about stop crying wolf as it paints the entire sport in a bad light.
To show the AKA that the "people" are concerned they need to flex their muscle to remove those that are responsible for the current situation. Until those at the top know that their position is at risk of they don't perform will ensure proper action is taken to remove them, unlike now, they know they can act as they do because there is NO threat to their position will ever come from the masses. Haaving a president that has been found guilty as a individual in the Fed court on a kart related matter is testimonial to this fact.
In reagrds to A] letter to CAMS, properly worded with evidence of any allegations may do some good, even if it just makes the author happy he/she did something, it may even work????
B] This could happen as there is evidence out there of constitutional failures/breaches, but who pays for this as not sure AKA will finance a action against themselves?? but there are avenues to follow that cost nothing ie Dept Fair Trading or alike. But this action wont remove anyone but may ensure proper procedures are adhered to?
C] Missed an opportunity to ring Channell 9 when the ACCC price fixing decision but that was a state issue but could have embarrased national into action. Plus you would risk action against yourself for bringing the sport into disrepute etc etc, and if the proposed new chnages in this area get in the AKA may be able to get to individuals much easier than they once could have.???
D] If any action like this was to occur you would need a good unuion leader, but he/she would be risking the wrath of the AKA exec.
E] Prokart or a new organisation? are options, many individuals i the Sydney metro area could take that up on their own, vote with their feet its called, and go to Prokart/NKA etc, but the effect would be slow and we have seen how the AKA react to perceived threats, but are wrking towards a better relationship. Star up afresh is a option an can be done, but would take a coordinated effort and in unison, clubs whilst maybe secretly willing will be hard pressed to take that initial step to move away and risk being a shag on a rock!!. Its only a matter of getting insurance and thats easily done and you can go yor own way, sounds simple and it can be, but its a big step. But the risk is if taken by all in 3 -5-7- years will we be back here saying the same thing???
F] Sit back and do nothing, which sadly is the norm in this sport, like many, may be what will happen, sadly. We need to get ppl more involved but we saw on the discussion page when you discuss touchy subjects, like the CMS, what you face if you try and challenge the organisation. But if eneough ppl attend club meetings those that "attack" these people willing to push for change will sit down and shut up, no different to the bully in the school playground, if they get stood up to and are backed up they back off. No different here.
First and foremost, a change to the consitution to change how the executive is elected. ie. elections carried out at the club level, giving more say to individual karters rather than leaving it in the hands of a select few. It would also help eliminate the situation where clubs put forward a particular person who may not be highly regarded by the other members of the executive.
I suspect if the karters were electing the executive, the majority would remain in office, there'd only be a few heads rolling.
As they say, play the ball, not the man. The problem is the general lack of consultation, and this is as much a product of the deficient operating structure of the AKA as it is any one individual involved in it.
Ian,
You only have to look at the attempt to shut the books to the membership to see how hard it will be to get any evidence to go any further with any complaint. You only ahve to look at what happens to individuals who ask questions to even get alook to see if ANYTHING has been done wrong. NSW made that mistake by putting their price fixing motion IN WRITING for all TO SEE so now everything is shut down that can be used against them if it goes that way.
It may just be that this sport will NEVER reach its full potential because those at the top just wont let it.
Ian Williams said:So what is your problem with the AKA ?????
You must hate the police because you once got a speeding fine, and you hate the local council because you got a parking fine - but lucky for them there is no internet forum for you to voice a stupid tirade .........
If you have a problem with something SPECIFIC let's hear it ??? To say the entire organisation is corrupt or inept is very far reaching and totally un-called for.
If you involved a lawyer, the police or the ACCC today, what evidence have you got that the sport is in chaos ?? Race meetings are happening all across the country, there is ongoing promotion and as far as I am aware no-one has been arrested for doing anything wrong.
Please .. I ask again ... if you can name a specific problem then we will all go ask the questions to get it fixed. If you have nothing definite then how about stop crying wolf as it paints the entire sport in a bad light.
You guys are wasting a lot of energy for no action. I have read most things said here and elsewhere and it is all a lot of smoke and mirrors but nothing anyone could hang their hat on as a legal argument and say " this person has done XYZ on such and such a date and we suffered ABC as a consequence".
I will say it again, a factual "he did this" or "he got paid for that" is required before anyone does anything. I myself am an AKA state president, and every day I see dozens of volunteers helping this sport to operate. Yes we run on a huge volunteer base and in most cases these people do what they think is the right thing. Almost all of these volunteers are untrained in whatever jobs they do in karting, that's the nature of volunteers. They may get in some situations over their heads, they may think they are helping when they are actually not, but for the most part your open-ended threats againts individuals and charges of corruption and malpractise read more like a bad newspaper report than any sort of need to take action against anybody.
I would ask everyone who chooses to reply to this .. what do you do in your part of the country to help run this sport ?? Is anyone on a club committee or a state council, and in so doing that job have you any evidence of actual wrongdoings by anybody ?? Do you help wherever it is needed or do you sit at your keyboard and throw hand-grenades just for the nuisance factor of it all ??
I see a lot of silly mistakes and errors of judgement made every day, but they are not life threatening nor so financially disastrous as to lead to the total ruin of our sport. We get past the little hiccups and as I said earlier the sport continues to exist. Maybe you have ideas of karting being bigger than the V8's in this country - well if no-one has told you before I am now - that's never going to happen.
And honestly, what will writing letters to CAMS do ?? If you have nothing to say beyond causing mischief then as a senior CAMS person myself I can say they will just politely say " OH that's nice" and get on with their own day to day operations.
So that then does answer your item D. We should not all sit back and do nothing, instead we should all get out there and assist at the very least at your local kart club or track. Now there's a novel idea - get out of the house and help !!!!!
looks like we will always be a amateur sport with a attitude like this eh??? no one here is saying that a great many ppl do what they can for this sport thats is not appreciated, we rely on volunteers. what we are saying those thay occupy the big position have to have some sort of professionalism.
You know it difficult to come here and name ppl for breaching laws setc Col up for defamation claims so we don't name ppl but they KNOW who they are.
Ian I know you do your bit, but you don't know what I do and have done for this sport for the past 17 years , yes haven't been a state prese, but been on committees etc etc officiated etc etc done my bit, and my current position I can't offer any more, much like 99% of us we do what we can with the time we have. And thats a problem with amateurs however well meaning will keep this sport down if we are HAPPY with that then so be it. BUT at least run by the rules at the verry least and not pretending to be professional.
There is no INDIVIDUAL really to balme its a COLLECTIVE effort but NO one has the courage to stand up and say yep I am responsible not even the then NSW president and Nat president could stand up in court and say being the president I am responsible, he had to blame ignorance of the law!!! where does the buck stop????
Just look at the turnover in this sport 90% are gone in 3 years on average AKA figures, no one stays in the spoprt long enough to get involved at any level. Just look at your own club, look 3 years ago, then 5 years ago and even 10 and see how many fit into those brackets. its all too simple to get out of the sport, only the devoted ones stay around.
Sadly Ian if you are a state president and NOT seeing what I am you better look harder, maybe take on the channel 10 show idea and go undercover at meetings play a member of the public and ask questions and see what responses you get you might learn something????
"...There is a system in place with AKA, USE IT..."
Damien, therein lies the problem. The average karter at club level has to use the A1 process. It would appear that the same does not apply from the top back down. A number of people have attempted to use the correct procedure to get answers to pertinent and very relevant questions. Some of these have found themselves targeted, vilified and excommunicated.
The current proposal to amend the Constitution is attempting to legitimise the actions that have been done in the past - keep the books closed and secret. It is THIS particular facet of the upper hierachy that posters here are trying to change. Can you honestly say that you are 100% happy with all of the decisions that have been made, and the uses your money has been put to? If we leave this crap alone, eventually we won't be able to get on with karting.
And finally, thank you for your constructive contribution to making this forum easier to read, and understand. Sieg Heil!!
You do ask very leading questions ..... but as you walked into this one sight unseen here it is ....... my own club has gone from 10 or 12 members between the years 2002 and 2009 up to in excess of 150 today !!!!
How can this be if we live on your doom and gloom planet ?? Well back in 2002 the club lost its track and so the members left for other clubs that could offer them a facility. But 2 years ago the club bought land and has since built a new track, for which it got a $100k loan from the AKA track development fund. Now if the AKA is bad to the core then how can they afford to do this ??
Just this week a similar loan of $75k went to a far north Queensland club, again a badly run organisation would have no money to do this with but the AKA seems to manage it.
Now how's this for another nail in the coffin that holds many peoples attitude .. I am a kart dealer !! I have been doing this full time for over 35 years. From the small rock under which I crawl on a daily basis , if the sport was not healthy then I'd be out of business and looking for a different line of work. But contrary to many opinions the sport is going along fine. For sure Karting has had its up and downs like anybody else, but the absolute vitriol that spews from the forums towards our controlling body from a very few persons is just so far wide of the truth it defies belief.
And in case you missed the message on your first day here, karting IS an amateur sport. Worldwide it is no different, it is a mom and dad and the kids sport, it is a hobby first and foremost to 99.5% of its participants. A small fact you may like to ponder is that the UK has a few over 3,500 licensed karters as against the 5,500 in the AKA - and they have TRIPLE our population. Now who is doing a better job ??
I will say this again -- do not place everyone and everything to do with the AKA in the same rotten egg basket. If you have a complaint then lay it - I will even deal with it if you private message me ?? But stop laying a blanket of doom over the sport as a whole, you are abusing your right to free speech by hiding behind rumour and innuendo.
Facts man ... give us facts and we may just listen to you.
Ian says ...>>>>>>>for which it got a $100k loan from the AKA track development fund. Now if the AKA is bad to the core then how can they afford to do this ??
Bloody simple Ian ... the money is and has been contributed over a number of years solely by kart racers and it goes in a TRUSTEE account belonging to the 7 State Associations who all have equity in the trust and it does NOT and will never belong to the AKA ...if we of the past had not ensured this was set up like this then we would have seen all those funds dissappear into car park bitumen ,noise meters and other dodgy ventures that would have been and were of no benefit to the stakeholders the contributing karters or their clubs facilities ............. !!!!!!
Oh how short memories we have !
Ian Williams said:A small fact you may like to ponder is that the UK has a few over 3,500 licensed karters as against the 5,500 in the AKA - and they have TRIPLE our population.
werent there over 10,000 in the 90s? perhaps lets stop patting ourselves on the back, and look at why that number has fallen so much.