Your comments are invited on the follwoing:
Any vote at national level may represent as little as 12.57% of eligible voters.
Here's how that figure comes about (based on the 'Simple Majority' method)
A vote at club level can be won by 50.1% of eligible voters. (0.501)
Delegate then goes to SKC meeting with clubs wishes.
A vote at SKC level can be won by 50.1% of eligible voters. (0.501)
So far, thats 0.501 x 0.501, which means that at SKC level, votes may represent as little as 25.1% of voters intentions.
One step further up the ivory tower and again 50.1% can hold sway.
Therefore, in the unlikely event that an idea suggested by an 'unconnected' individual at club level, ever gets to a vote at national level, the result may reflect as little as (a shade under) 13% of the intent of the people that may be affected by the decision.
This, of course, does not take into consideration such things as delegates voting contrary to, or without the direction of their clubs (or state councils), nor does it consider that in many cases, the final number may well represent the intent of the majority of karters.
Yes, this is an extremely simplified example, but it really IS time for us to think about some of the structures that allow the AKA to continue making so many seemingly unrepresentative decisions.
Comments12
To simplified. A decision by a state to send something to national, results in that item being sent to all other states, and to the clubs, so, all people who bother to go to their club meeting will be able to have a say. Then, at each state SKC, the delegate will be instructed after a vote by the club delegates, on how he is to vote at national. 100% of karters CAN have their say.
Hi Steve,
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This IS the problem with the current system, whilst in THEORY every karter CAN have his say/vote, reality is they don't/cant. So in the end we do in fact have quite often have less than 50% even voting on a motion IF IF it even GETS to club level, How many motions on the last wekend's NKC meeting got all the way down to club level??? RV raised a very good point in that many motions are NOT given enough time to even ALLOW due process!!! and its quite often THESE motions that are the "touchy" ones!!!! strange that eh!!!
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The problem IS the grass roots karter doesn't feel that even if he goes to his club meeting his voice is not seriously heard, especially if he wants a "touchy" subject raised or will get attacked by the ppwer cells that DO exist. And then even if they get their motion to the next level it has to be dealt with again at SKC level and then at NKC and by then its lost steam or just outright thrown out so why bother etc etc.
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I believe if we CUT OUT STATE level to a point [ not entirely] I believe we will get more participation at club level as a whole level of beauracracy has been removed, and a motion will be better based on its merits NOT which state it has come from. Plus clubs wont have to worry about not towing the "company" line and face behind the scenes back stabbing etc.
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The average karter doesn't believe his vote counts, until we can demonstrate to him that it can [ by changing this system] he wont bother turning up. We have to move with the times and with electronic media and inetrnet we can produce a voting system that could fix some of the current problems of this system, one of which is the DELEGATE, or the need for one that is? why have one if an agenda is produced why not a club vote via internet? , commonly called "postal voting" delegates are NOT allowed to change their instructions so why force this person to give up 3 days and the expense to the club attending a SKC meeting when all he is in reality a vote carrier!!!!!???? just send your clubs vote in, its counted and a result is produced, whats the problem with this??? maybe if members see their vote gets DIRECT access with NO chance of being altered they may get more involved, clubs may like the no kore expense or recruiting a delegate, end result is they can still VOTE.
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There are ways to encourage more participation BUT really do those in the power cells REALLY want this?? me suspects NOT. otherwise they would be acting on some of the suggestions to change LIKE GOVERNANCE AS AGREED TO 5 YEARS AGO.
Show us thee actual breakdown then please Steve. In worst case scenario, how much will my vote be diluted by the time it reaches NKC?
Steve Southwell said:
To simplified. A decision by a state to send something to national, results in that item being sent to all other states, and to the clubs, so, all people who bother to go to their club meeting will be able to have a say. Then, at each state SKC, the delegate will be instructed after a vote by the club delegates, on how he is to vote at national. 100% of karters CAN have their say.
There was a time where the biggest club in Aus struggled to get a chorum, and even NSW SKC meeting failed one year to get a chorum of clubs!!! so I can see what you are saying and you are correct, but it will be hard to put an exact figure on it, but its the minority for sure.
Actually Steve, now that I read your reply again, I do believe you have simply repeated the status quo.
Yes, the ivory tower hands down a sermon. If 50.1% of members present at a club meeting vote in favour, then the SKC delegates vote and 50.1% of them are in favour, it goes back to the ivory tower with a possible representation as little as 25.1%.
No matter how you look at (or cook) the figures, this is straight mathematics.....and a fact that even the AKA cannot change.
Ask yourself the following question Steve:
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When the vote was held (for example) on the CM:S system, are you 100% certain that the outcome represented what at least 50.1% of individual karters across Australia voted for at their club meeting (of those that actually turned up to vote), or was it simply what the twice diluted end result was (after lengthy 'in camera' discussions took place prior to the vote at both SKC and NKC meetings)?
Steve Southwell said:
To simplified. A decision by a state to send something to national, results in that item being sent to all other states, and to the clubs, so, all people who bother to go to their club meeting will be able to have a say. Then, at each state SKC, the delegate will be instructed after a vote by the club delegates, on how he is to vote at national. 100% of karters CAN have their say.
from my post on another thread that talks about the issue.
Makes it hard to attend meetings when you live 1hr plus away from the club and the meetings are on weeknights. Not all people are able to attend the meetings even if they would like to and vote on the issues. People are busy and dont have time for this sort of thing in the modern world.
What would be the problem of removing the final vote system of the nkc and put the smart card to use. Individual votes for every karter with issues still to be introduced by clubs. There would still be need for people to attend club meetings to introduce issues and vote on club dealings but then the vast majority of karters that currently have little say are able to vote.
Josh,
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many ppl can't get to meeting for the same reason, and other reasons, BUT if you know of a motion up for discussion you can put in writing to your club your views, it should be treated as correspondence and read out at the meeting. Whilst its not as perfect as being there to further discuss your letter it at least adds to what other may have said about the motion. If its on a club issue whilst not a binding vote a ssuch the committee can add it to the general "vibe" about whats said about the topic. Or you CAN give your vote to a member who maybe attending, again this is not perfect and I dislike the PROXY system as its abused teribly.
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The problem with your suggestion Josh would be it would require the current system to change it, and the current system gives them the power in essence they wont surrender their power no matter what recent move to governance is obvious proof of this. I agre and have said we should be utilising modern technology the best we can, this move would NOT cost the karter any money and in fact SAVE karters money!!!!!! and get them more involved WIN WIN!!!
Steve Southwell is absolutely correct; the perfect democracy principle.
Steve O'Neil is also correct, albeit, entirely optimistic I suspect.
If 10 members each went to a meeting of all AKA clubs, (about 80 clubs) that's 800.
800 of 5000 licences times 2.5 club members per licence holder (12500) is 6.4% meaning support of just 6.4% can produce a resolution in favour of a rule or whatever.
93% can be opposed but will lose.
The perfect democracy principle in practice.
Sigh.
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Steve,
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Put that to your club in writing, a] its a good test for your club to see if they ARE interested in their members views, b] it is official correspondence so has to be recognised and acted on, again a good test for your club.
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You are correct postal voting as its called is possible.
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Hi Steve,
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Unfortunately that can be a risk, HOWEVER, you are a member entitled to vote, its the same for EVERYONE and not dependant on what "extras" you do, you don't get 2 votes if you wave a flag etc.
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It will depend on what you want to ask, and how you approach it IF your club is truly interested in doing things correctly it will give ita fair go.
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Keep dreaming boys ..nothing will change because the power cells won't let it, and a vote at the table for each state at NKC level is 14.2 % whether you have 3000 stakeholders or 30 stakeholders ...democracy at work !!!!....Now the talk is moving to governance ...eg: the current unskilled lot want more power and remove your ability to have any say at all except to remove them from office with a 75% majority of karters !!!! So that number will never be reached and the 1917 achievement in Russia is will be re-enacted here in 2011..
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As GH says ....sigh.............!!!!
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Ralph, as you seem to be one of the few that actually know what you're talking about, maybe you would have some information on just how much is spent each year on delegate costs. Even though I don't know the figure, I would imagine it would be quite substantial. Whatever the figure, I would imagine that it would be considerably more in any one year, than the ONE OFF costs involved in establishing an online voting system (complete with all the appropriate safeguards and restrictions). Of course, it would make it much harder for vested interests to influence the vote.
Ralph van Doorn said:
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Keep dreaming boys ..nothing will change because the power cells won't let it, and a vote at the table for each state at NKC level is 14.2 % whether you have 3000 stakeholders or 30 stakeholders ...democracy at work !!!!....Now the talk is moving to governance ...eg: the current unskilled lot want more power and remove your ability to have any say at all except to remove them from office with a 75% majority of karters !!!! So that number will never be reached and the 1917 achievement in Russia is will be re-enacted here in 2011..
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As GH says ....sigh.............!!!!
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