Now this IS NOT AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM THE VIC CLUB
This is my personal view, and I don't care which club wants to put it up, my view is the same.
Does it bother me? no. Do as you wish, it's not my class, however, from a "Sports" perspective.
The Rotax class was bought in as a "get you started min cost, easy change over from sprint class." OPTIONAL bodywork, (NOSECONE), fit a rainlight, change your gearing, PLASTIC sidepods, no layback seats. I think this will make potential sprint karters, who may be looking at our type of racing right now cause of the crap within KA have another think.
And a far bigger issue for us is the NEW Rotax motor.
I always wanted a wing, so when the 100 NGB died I bought a 125 GB.
Now I don't know a lot about aero, but I do know a little about how planes fly. And the other night a very experienced GB driver pointed out to me "but they don't have a full floor tray". So how are you going to control the various air pressures coming from under the kart affecting the wing?
Personally, it may look sharper, but how will it affect handling?
Someone with far more brains than I could answer that.
Hi Brian and Rolf, This is not my class and so it does not affect me but I would like to say that I got into Superkarts because I saw a 250 Superkart with wings and thing hanging off it and I just had to stop and have a look at it. :o
From there, I brought a 80cc Superkart and raced it for a season. The following year, I added a wing to the front and rear, as some of us did then thanks to Ian Pollard. :)
Now the kart really did look like a Superkart, not just a sprint kart with a nose. 8) The cost was never really a consideration, although it was reasonable, the looks were worth it and many non Superkart folks commented how good they looked. And they weren’t the only ones who thought so; the Victorian Superkart Club gave me an award for Best Present Kart at that time. 8) While the cost of a Wing might be a consideration for a few, the looks will probably sell them - and who knows, they might even attract a few people to the sport like they did me. :)
I like it, always hated the 'basic' sprint kart look. As for the crossover from sprint, that crap died when they allowed the Viper or Scorpian karts to race. It's all evolution.
Probably a good thing making the change, it could create some interest for that class for young guys wanting to get out of sprint karting or give long track a go.
I can advise here how all this "wings on Rotaxes started"
We were approached by a NSW club member who wanted to know how he could put a wing on a max. His reasoning was "are we not Superkarts as a category, if we wanted to be a sprint kart we'd go race in the AKA"
An option to move ahead was only achieved after I attempted to call every NGB NSW club member to ask there feedback and opinion. I reached 17 of 19 members and all 17 said "no issue, give anyone who has a wing there points, and revisit the topic if any results blow out with a wing" Outside of that, 16 of 17 said a wing is something they found interesting, and whilst not committing, would not rule out getting one in the future.
At that point we approached AASA, advising them of the path taken to come up the wing outcome. AASA has given dispensation to run the wing in NSW ONLY. We made that clear. We weren't talking for any other state as we have no right to, but those states under AASA would be welcome to do it as well if they so desired.
To date, 4 wings have been sold. What you see in Brian's? lovely pic is a cost of $300.00. You'd assume its a 1 off expense as if the wing got broken through damage, we'd all likely have bigger issues than a $300.00 wing!
The NSW club promoted at the Sydney 500 over the weekend. When people approached for a chat, if they were people who said "I have a max, I race AKA, etc etc, we'd show them a pic of 2015 NGB for NSW. Not 1 negative comment from the public, only comments of "that's cool man, awesome, looks great etc"
I to have heard the comments before being "It was meant to be an easy crossover from sprint", "Its meant to be cost effective" regarding doing anything with a max. Well in my 6 or so years as President of NSW, and talking to 99% of new members during this time, not once anybody complained about the certain things you must do to a max to be compliant. I've never heard "but we run this in sprint etc, as an example tyres. They've been happy to do what they needed to do, to enjoy the great sport of Superkarting.
I really do liken the comment "its an easy crossover from sprint" to having a job as a doorman. You hold the door open but know one is on the other side. So why not have a shot at this.
I've heard overtime as well from both the CAMS and AASA fronts " the Superkart category struggles to gain respect as its deemed to be just a go kart". I take that offensive, I'm proud of the Superkart category but can understand there point.
The argument of cost is irrelevant as well. We all heard the arguments over a nose cone on a Stock Honda when it started. The $400.00 was going to drive people away! Rubbish, if $400.00 will drive people away, or send them broke, then sorry guys, they'd last 1 or 2 race meetings and have gone broke anyway.
Anyway, 4 wings sold so far, another 3 at present saying "will I now or will I later", enquiry from both QLD an VIC asking questions.
Of course if anyones wants to discuss it, feel free to call me or email anytime.
From the time I joined the NSW Club I've always wondered why rotaxs don't have a wing? What appealed to me was the look of the 250's and 125's. Since I had a rotax I thought I'd give superkarting a go. To my amazement I couldn't believe full body work was not legal like the other two categories. After all we are "superkarts"... I've been busting to get a wing on and after asking the right people I managed to get a wing made. I fabricated the uprights and after numerous designs and tweaking I came up with final product. End plates were also made of differing sizes to see what effect they would have on performance. I have since tested my wing both at Wakefield Park and Sydney Motorsport Park. I have managed to accumulate a fair bit of data. 1/Wing and 100x200 end plates 2/Wing and 200x200 end plates 3/ No Wing
My data showed NO difference in top end speed or lap times. I was after two things, Aesthetics and no performance advantage (I didn't want anyone without a wing being disadvantaged) So I guess I ticked both those boxes off.
So I've seen a Superkart club display here and there at particular events/shows. Now where is a Superkart store in NSW, QLD, VIC, SA, WA so I can walk in, view and instantly make a purchase for karts and parts used in Superkart racing? What is going to promote the sport is multiple sources/vendors in a respected retail outlet. That is the only reason why I pushed for Stock Honda class to be introduced into Superkarting, everything is generic, off the shelf karting equipment, chassis to a worldwide regulation, assemble the package using basic tools and knowledge in the comforts of your own garage or have a karting store do it all for you. No welders or fabrication skills required.
Unfortunately, Superkarters are just mates of other mates, coupled with their mates who help each other out, that in turn makes a field of Superkart racers. It's hard to convince someone from the outside Superkarting to make a substantial investment into a sport knitted this way but very easy for current members to fall out.
A wing or anything to dress up a go-kart does nothing to address the issue to save our future becoming extinct. It's time to start thinking how you make this sport accessible by customer impulse and supported by the industry at retail level.
In my opinion it has nothing to do with making it cheaper.. Superkarting is cheap as it is.. You would budget just as much to go sprint karting and we are talking about grass root Motorsport here... Only category cheaper would be lawn mower racing.
I'm with you on that Ant. For me, a budget for 9 race meetings in a Rotax is around $6000. That's accommodation, everything. Hey, cheaper would be great, but really........When you look at the big scheme of things, how on earth do you get cheaper.
Then you talk to a sprint karter, and they tell you how much they spend, you almost need to be sitting!
Once again, a wing on a max is nothing more than about the look, and feedback says its a bloody good look.
Will a wing on a max reinvent the wheel? No, it was never the intention, but holding the door open when know one is on the other side is abit silly to. Who knows, some may see a wing and want to join, they may not to.
In 7 years of taking the phone calls, the ONLY sprint guys interested up here are the ones over the biff and barge. But hey, maybe its different in other states, I don't know, but looking at numbers on the track for NGB, I'd say its similar to us.
The sprint mentality is a funny mentality. Our entry fees they just can't see past. I've said to them "but what does it cost per race meeting" against "our race meeting". Tyres per meeting, $60-$80.00 entry, damage, damage and more damage. No the entry fee is to dear!! Each to there own.
[quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg26793#msg26793 date=1418032108] From the time I joined the NSW Club I've always wondered why rotaxs don't have a wing? What appealed to me was the look of the 250's and 125's. Since I had a rotax I thought I'd give superkarting a go. To my amazement I couldn't believe full body work was not legal like the other two categories. After all we are "superkarts"... I've been busting to get a wing on and after asking the right people I managed to get a wing made. I fabricated the uprights and after numerous designs and tweaking I came up with final product. End plates were also made of differing sizes to see what effect they would have on performance. I have since tested my wing both at Wakefield Park and Sydney Motorsport Park. I have managed to accumulate a fair bit of data. 1/Wing and 100x200 end plates 2/Wing and 200x200 end plates 3/ No Wing
My data showed NO difference in top end speed or lap times. I was after two things, Aesthetics and no performance advantage (I didn't want anyone without a wing being disadvantaged) So I guess I ticked both those boxes off.
[/quote]
Please read carefully...
1 /Category Superkarts 2 /Aesthetics 3 /Wing is "Optional" 4 /No Down Force 5 /Proven same top end speed and lap times with and without wing 6 /Trying to improve our category
Please feel free to read over this as many times as you like.
Thankfully there are people like John Pellicano, Brian Stockman and Sam Zavaglia to name a few that are trying to make the difference in our sport. As far as I am concerned if everyone tried to make Superkarting that little bit better it would be to the advantage of all superkarters. I thought dinosaurs were extinct , then I joined Superkarting and found they are alive and well...
The max is coming along nicely to be ready for January 2015. Some enquiry has come in already about full kits which will give further options for the NGB class
So whats the wing angle? Is it adjustable? Max size across all planes of the wing? How you going to manage that? (cause you KNOW people will fiddle) Size of end plates?
Given the dimensions of other NGB parts are so controlled this has to be a know thing.
You're not the 1st Stock Honda driver to mention that! But if a wing is something that interests you, do what happened in our club, talk to the guys in the class and if the guys want it, talk to your state club about what you guys would like to do.
Looks great, but I wouldn't put one on a Stock Honda or a Max if I was running that class. The reason I wouldn't bother is that it does nothing except maybe screw with your balance in high speed corners. Everybody to there own though, for me racing is about going faster and that doesn't help achieve that objective. I think Sam is spot on as well, its not really a cost thing its about everyone having easy access to the same stuff in the budget classes or any class for that to make everything easy for people with busy lifestyles.
Well people what a brilliant weekend of racing we had at Wakefield Park. There were 3 Rotax Max's and 1 Stock Honda with a wing, they looked awesome. Great feed back from everyone there, people were saying finally they look correct as a Superkart should. The racing was so evenly matched there was nothing between 1st to 6th place. Going by what people have been saying you would have expected lap times between either a 1.02 or a 1.59 lap for the maxes.
Guess what no difference as I have been saying all along, not sure if anyone here has a doctorate in Aeronautical Engineering of Aeordynanic engineering, sometimes it's better not open your mouth and let people think your stupid rather than opening it and confirming you are...
[quote author=Mr Pitt link=topic=2459.msg27096#msg27096 date=1422327613] FYI it did receive a trophy for Stock Honda, not 125gb... [/quote] So does that mean the driver cheated Dennis?........I mean running a wing in Stock Honda and collecting a trophy and club championship points in Stock Honda class. Were all the NSW Stock Honda club members asked if its OK for a winged kart to run for Stock Honda club championship points and trophy? Good way to f**k a class but then again, it doesn't surprise me that it all originates from the same person running the club, making the wing and never having a good word to say about the Stock Honda class. What a joke your club has become and with no shame too if what you say is true, if not true then no problems.
There were only two stock Hondas running on the weekend. The competitor did seek club permission, and asked his fellow competitor if it was fine. His kart was scrutinized for wing install. Competitor finished second overall and received a trophy for his efforts, as there were no other stock Hondas there.
So with the NSW club doing its own thing on this winged wonder idea, we are in the dark as far as the numbers who are willing to race on the outside. How many are looking to go to PI in August for the CAMS NGB National event ??
I can tell you I have at least 10 of the best going over from SA. If you want to race , and who does not want to beat the Vics, then how about joining us at this event ??
[quote author=Ian Williams link=topic=2459.msg27971#msg27971 date=1435282156] So with the NSW club doing its own thing on this winged wonder idea, we are in the dark as far as the numbers who are willing to race on the outside. How many are looking to go to PI in August for the CAMS NGB National event ??
I can tell you I have at least 10 of the best going over from SA. If you want to race , and who does not want to beat the Vics, then how about joining us at this event ?? [/quote] Ian, In NSW there is only 2x NGB guys that possibly race interstate, that being Alan Dodge and Mark Vickers, the rest have been hypnotised to sit around and have a wank on how the kart looks (colours/wings/noses). As soon as there is anything at track that resembles real or competitive racing, the fun police turn up with their intimidation polices.
As of 2016, Australian Superkarting will only have the provision to have a interstate fairy floss festival instead of a "CAMS Australian Superkart Championship". This would now make for a perfect opportunity to sit around and wank over wings and things.
(see document link) [url=http://docs.cams.com.au/Public%20Documents/Motor%20Sport%20Documents/CAMS_AMRC_Strategic%20Group_20150629.pdf]http://docs.cams.com.au/Public%20Documents/Motor%20Sport%20Documents/CAMS_AMRC_Strategic%20Group_20150629.pdf[/url]
To be honest Sam, that is probably the most promotion the Superkart category has had "from above" in a long time. We have actually been mentioned in the same press release as other more well recognised categories .... that's a first !!
No-one has ever noticed us until they now come in and give us a kicking.
So what happens next ??
I'd put money on the SKA are trying to save their thin skins by putting together a proposal to be the sole promoter allowed to run the various Superkart state Championships. What a waste of their time, certainly a cobbled road if they tried that in either of the Southern states..
Right here and now I will say that the only successful way to move forward from this point is to have the states return to running a single round Superkart state championship in each of their states. That will allow interstate competitors to choose to do an event over the border, like NSW drivers can go up to Qld , and south to Vic. Then South Aussies can go to Vic , and the Vics likewise go the other way and up to NSW.
From this small interpollenation the sport can again re-grow its grass-roots and if in time the numbers go up then in 5 or 10 years the CLUB's can go ask CAMS if we may again promote a National Championship event. Run at a single event and run by a club.
This keeps all the money within the sport for a start, and it restricts or even discourages clubs holding events with other categories which have proven over the past 10 years to take competitors away from the Superkart categories.
I am all for in the current position that we turn around and look 180 degrees directly backwards. We go back to what worked for us for 20 or 30 years and emulate that. If that succeeds then we take a step forward. If it does not then we have already tried the "other" way and we know that is not the answer.
You can shoot the messenger if you like, but the sport was a success in the 70's, 80's and 90's, and we need to go and do exactly that again.
So , had a quick response from a NSW heavyweight over the holidays and he is still banging on about how backward we are in SA , and Victoria, for not getting with the "wings" thing on Max karts.
My very simple question is what is happening in Qld ?? If the wings on Max's made them so popular in NSW, has their nearest neighbour followed suit and done the same with their karts ?? Has it worked for them in more visibility and translated to more numbers of karts ??
Gotta ask as there does not seem to be much else happening -- someone has gotta get the boat floated and underway.
Ian, no rotax max wings up here. I wonder who the NSW heavy weight was? I suspect it might be the person the Ex Cook called the Birdman but I am only guessing.
No-one is questioning or not understanding the fact that the wings are optional, we understand that. Where we have an impediment is that all events, 100% of them, in SA are run under CAMS and there is no option at all for us to run a wing on a Rotax Max kart.
My addition to this topic was to enquire whether this optional extra part had done anything for the numbers in NSW, and secondly whether if that success was self evident enough that the Qld club followed suit. Had both these scenarios been in the positive, I would have followed it up.
So far this could only realistically be done in NSW and Qld as in those states the percentage of non_CAMS events to CAMS events is like 5:1 or more. The fitting of a wing requires more than a little time and effort, and there is a cost. As a complete outsider to the states where this was possible I was just asking if that had been seen as a positive change or another idea like the 450cc 4 strokes that just padded the rule book out a bit further but made no advances to the sport overall.
Ian for me it's only been an aesthetic look that I was ever after, to fit in with the Superkart look! Has it attracted more people into the club probably not, but that wasn't the reason I started the idea of a rear wing. Most of our members in the NSW club do like the wing, so I suppose that's why more wings are getting made.
[quote]So , had a quick response from a NSW heavyweight over the holidays and he is still banging on about how backward we are in SA , and Victoria, for not getting with the "wings" thing on Max karts.[/quote]
Let him bang on. I never tire of his antics.
THREE states aren't worried about a wing, not that I'm against it, but the masses (and people that race the class) have shown they can get a Superkart look if they want it or just don't give a shit.
So MY thought is, I doubt you'll get much support from THREE States on making it a CAMS rule.
Then again with the sway power some people have it's probably being written as I write this.
Nah Rolf there are more important things in life .... such as how is the Rotax Max EVO upgrade regulations coming along ??
You can no longer buy a standard Rotax Max , only the EVO is available, so we are now discouraging newcomers to the sport by not allowing them to buy a new engine and come race.
We need the NSA to be "active" in all its doings, otherwise we sit on our hands and get nowhere.
Its time for another shakeup I think , 4 states with 2 representatives each at NSA level is not workable when every vote is 2 to 2, and self interest groups can ensure nothing goes ahead.
The other topic is tyres. Sooner rather than later there will be no more SL6's or MG reds, the choices will slim to nothing and then we won't even be able to race.
Ian/Rolf you are both correct in saying that we need to prioritize the Evo Motor. As you said Ian "Its time for another shakeup I think , 4 states with 2 representatives each at NSA level is not workable when every vote is 2 to 2, and self interest groups can ensure nothing goes ahead" We need to put our sport first so we can evolve and move forward and strengthen our position. Too many people are short sighted and just can't see the big picture, be it the Evo motor or the wing. All the states need to stop self sabotaging our sport!
[quote author=Rotax #27 link=topic=2459.msg28226#msg28226 date=1453416789] I put up an alternative tyre list to be discussed and will follow that up again. It retained SL6 and MG red but also put in the alternatives coming through such as DFM/H and MG red/white. Also Maxxis SLR and the new Bridgestone.
Cheers Rod. [/quote]
Hi Rod, what did the proposal say exactly? Reason why I ask is that I have seen somewhere that the Maxxis HG3 might be available again very soon. Might have something to do with Ian Williams but not sure. MOJO is still available but is too expensive and doesn't last long from our experience with them. If you have a look at this link, http://www.karting.net.au/media/technical/2016/2016%20DUNLOP%20TYRE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf, the Dunlop paperwork says the Dunlop DFM has a shore hardness of 49.4 which is about the same as a MG Yellow. All the current tyres are SL type tyres that have a shore hardness of 60. The MG tyre homologation KA paper can be seen at this link http://www.karting.net.au/media/technical/2016/2016%20MG%20TYRE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf . Shame the put the shore hardness of the MG White/ Red down as 60 when its actually 59 and are now the same price as a yellow.
Had our first day racing on the DFM Dunlops today in sprint, and gotta say they are almost the equal of MG yellow's for grip. Astoundingly poor choice of tyre for a class that is for old over 40 drivers and the restricted 125's.
Would definitely NOT be looking to include that in our classes.
The Maxxis HG3's are back in production, a hire kart centre that imports its own Maxxis tyres has ordered them and the first shipment of 130 sets are already on their way to Australia.
Bit of a struggle to find some specs on the Dunlop DFH tyres. DPE have about 1500 sets of MG reds in stock they tell me a few weeks ago so they are not likely to run out in the near future. They will continue to keep them in stock for Australia and they are still used in NZ. I think as long as any tyre has a shore hardness of 60 or more, it should be ok. The Hoosier R60, not R60A, would also be a good addition to the list but are a bit pricey. The Rotax Sprintkart chassis is designed around an "SL" or Sports Leisure tyre so they are cost effective to run. This is why the chassis are a bit stiffer etc so they work the tyre harder to get the same grip out of a harder tyre. What KA have done using that DFM is strange, but not surprising.
Paul, they do look good thats for sure. Wayne's black and pink rotax looks very cool. I wonder if a submission will be put in for rotax and stock Honda to have the option to fit one soon? No, it won't come from me.
Comments50
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Now this IS NOT AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM THE VIC CLUB
This is my personal view, and I don't care which club wants to put it up, my view is the same.
Does it bother me? no. Do as you wish, it's not my class, however, from a "Sports" perspective.
The Rotax class was bought in as a "get you started min cost, easy change over from sprint class."
OPTIONAL bodywork, (NOSECONE), fit a rainlight, change your gearing, PLASTIC sidepods, no layback seats.
I think this will make potential sprint karters, who may be looking at our type of racing right now cause of the crap within KA have another think.
And a far bigger issue for us is the NEW Rotax motor.
I always wanted a wing, so when the 100 NGB died I bought a 125 GB.
Now I don't know a lot about aero, but I do know a little about how planes fly. And the other night a very experienced GB driver pointed out to me "but they don't have a full floor tray". So how are you going to control the various air pressures coming from under the kart affecting the wing?
Personally, it may look sharper, but how will it affect handling?
Someone with far more brains than I could answer that.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
This is not my class and so it does not affect me but I would like to say that I got into Superkarts because I saw a 250 Superkart with wings and thing hanging off it and I just had to stop and have a look at it. :o
From there, I brought a 80cc Superkart and raced it for a season. The following year, I added a wing to the front and rear, as some of us did then thanks to Ian Pollard. :)
Now the kart really did look like a Superkart, not just a sprint kart with a nose. 8)
The cost was never really a consideration, although it was reasonable, the looks were worth it and many non Superkart folks commented how good they looked. And they weren’t the only ones who thought so; the Victorian Superkart Club gave me an award for Best Present Kart at that time. 8)
While the cost of a Wing might be a consideration for a few, the looks will probably sell them - and who knows, they might even attract a few people to the sport like they did me. :)
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Probably a good thing making the change, it could create some interest for that class for young guys wanting to get out of sprint karting or give long track a go.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
We were approached by a NSW club member who wanted to know how he could put a wing on a max. His reasoning was "are we not Superkarts as a category, if we wanted to be a sprint kart we'd go race in the AKA"
An option to move ahead was only achieved after I attempted to call every NGB NSW club member to ask there feedback and opinion. I reached 17 of 19 members and all 17 said "no issue, give anyone who has a wing there points, and revisit the topic if any results blow out with a wing" Outside of that, 16 of 17 said a wing is something they found interesting, and whilst not committing, would not rule out getting one in the future.
At that point we approached AASA, advising them of the path taken to come up the wing outcome. AASA has given dispensation to run the wing in NSW ONLY. We made that clear. We weren't talking for any other state as we have no right to, but those states under AASA would be welcome to do it as well if they so desired.
To date, 4 wings have been sold. What you see in Brian's? lovely pic is a cost of $300.00. You'd assume its a 1 off expense as if the wing got broken through damage, we'd all likely have bigger issues than a $300.00 wing!
The NSW club promoted at the Sydney 500 over the weekend. When people approached for a chat, if they were people who said "I have a max, I race AKA, etc etc, we'd show them a pic of 2015 NGB for NSW. Not 1 negative comment from the public, only comments of "that's cool man, awesome, looks great etc"
I to have heard the comments before being "It was meant to be an easy crossover from sprint", "Its meant to be cost effective" regarding doing anything with a max. Well in my 6 or so years as President of NSW, and talking to 99% of new members during this time, not once anybody complained about the certain things you must do to a max to be compliant. I've never heard "but we run this in sprint etc, as an example tyres. They've been happy to do what they needed to do, to enjoy the great sport of Superkarting.
I really do liken the comment "its an easy crossover from sprint" to having a job as a doorman. You hold the door open but know one is on the other side. So why not have a shot at this.
I've heard overtime as well from both the CAMS and AASA fronts " the Superkart category struggles to gain respect as its deemed to be just a go kart". I take that offensive, I'm proud of the Superkart category but can understand there point.
The argument of cost is irrelevant as well. We all heard the arguments over a nose cone on a Stock Honda when it started. The $400.00 was going to drive people away! Rubbish, if $400.00 will drive people away, or send them broke, then sorry guys, they'd last 1 or 2 race meetings and have gone broke anyway.
Anyway, 4 wings sold so far, another 3 at present saying "will I now or will I later", enquiry from both QLD an VIC asking questions.
Of course if anyones wants to discuss it, feel free to call me or email anytime.
Cheers
Wayne
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
What appealed to me was the look of the 250's and 125's. Since I had a rotax I thought
I'd give superkarting a go. To my amazement I couldn't believe full body work was not legal
like the other two categories.
After all we are "superkarts"...
I've been busting to get a wing on and after asking the right people I managed to get a wing made. I fabricated the uprights and after numerous designs and tweaking I came up with final product. End plates were also made of differing sizes to see what effect they would have on performance.
I have since tested my wing both at Wakefield Park and Sydney Motorsport Park. I have managed
to accumulate a fair bit of data.
1/Wing and 100x200 end plates
2/Wing and 200x200 end plates
3/ No Wing
My data showed NO difference in top end speed or lap times.
I was after two things, Aesthetics and no performance advantage (I didn't want anyone without a wing being disadvantaged)
So I guess I ticked both those boxes off.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
What is going to promote the sport is multiple sources/vendors in a respected retail outlet.
That is the only reason why I pushed for Stock Honda class to be introduced into Superkarting, everything is generic, off the shelf karting equipment, chassis to a worldwide regulation, assemble the package using basic tools and knowledge in the comforts of your own garage or have a karting store do it all for you. No welders or fabrication skills required.
Unfortunately, Superkarters are just mates of other mates, coupled with their mates who help each other out, that in turn makes a field of Superkart racers. It's hard to convince someone from the outside Superkarting to make a substantial investment into a sport knitted this way but very easy for current members to fall out.
A wing or anything to dress up a go-kart does nothing to address the issue to save our future becoming extinct. It's time to start thinking how you make this sport accessible by customer impulse and supported by the industry at retail level.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Then you talk to a sprint karter, and they tell you how much they spend, you almost need to be sitting!
Once again, a wing on a max is nothing more than about the look, and feedback says its a bloody good look.
Will a wing on a max reinvent the wheel? No, it was never the intention, but holding the door open when know one is on the other side is abit silly to. Who knows, some may see a wing and want to join, they may not to.
In 7 years of taking the phone calls, the ONLY sprint guys interested up here are the ones over the biff and barge. But hey, maybe its different in other states, I don't know, but looking at numbers on the track for NGB, I'd say its similar to us.
The sprint mentality is a funny mentality. Our entry fees they just can't see past. I've said to them "but what does it cost per race meeting" against "our race meeting". Tyres per meeting, $60-$80.00 entry, damage, damage and more damage. No the entry fee is to dear!! Each to there own.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
From the time I joined the NSW Club I've always wondered why rotaxs don't have a wing?
What appealed to me was the look of the 250's and 125's. Since I had a rotax I thought
I'd give superkarting a go. To my amazement I couldn't believe full body work was not legal
like the other two categories.
After all we are "superkarts"...
I've been busting to get a wing on and after asking the right people I managed to get a wing made. I fabricated the uprights and after numerous designs and tweaking I came up with final product. End plates were also made of differing sizes to see what effect they would have on performance.
I have since tested my wing both at Wakefield Park and Sydney Motorsport Park. I have managed
to accumulate a fair bit of data.
1/Wing and 100x200 end plates
2/Wing and 200x200 end plates
3/ No Wing
My data showed NO difference in top end speed or lap times.
I was after two things, Aesthetics and no performance advantage (I didn't want anyone without a wing being disadvantaged)
So I guess I ticked both those boxes off.
[/quote]
Please read carefully...
1 /Category Superkarts
2 /Aesthetics
3 /Wing is "Optional"
4 /No Down Force
5 /Proven same top end speed and lap times
with and without wing
6 /Trying to improve our category
Please feel free to read over this as many
times as you like.
Thankfully there are people like John Pellicano, Brian Stockman
and Sam Zavaglia to name a few that are trying to make the difference
in our sport.
As far as I am concerned if everyone tried to make
Superkarting that little bit better it would be to the
advantage of all superkarters.
I thought dinosaurs were extinct , then I joined Superkarting
and found they are alive and well...
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Cant wait to see it on the grid in 2015.... ;D
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Is it adjustable?
Max size across all planes of the wing?
How you going to manage that? (cause you KNOW people will fiddle)
Size of end plates?
Given the dimensions of other NGB parts are so controlled this has to be a know thing.
Remember the "rear bar"
;)
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
You're not the 1st Stock Honda driver to mention that! But if a wing is something that interests you, do what happened in our club, talk to the guys in the class and if the guys want it, talk to your state club about what you guys would like to do.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Everybody to there own though, for me racing is about going faster and that doesn't help achieve that objective.
I think Sam is spot on as well, its not really a cost thing its about everyone having easy access to the same stuff in the budget classes or any class for that to make everything easy for people with busy lifestyles.
Ever heard the saying keep it simple stupid?
Jason.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Well people what a brilliant weekend of racing we had at Wakefield Park.
There were 3 Rotax Max's and 1 Stock Honda with a wing, they looked awesome.
Great feed back from everyone there, people were saying finally they look correct
as a Superkart should.
The racing was so evenly matched there was nothing between 1st to 6th place.
Going by what people have been saying you would have expected lap times between either
a 1.02 or a 1.59 lap for the maxes.
Guess what no difference as I have been saying all along, not sure if anyone here has a doctorate in
Aeronautical Engineering of Aeordynanic engineering, sometimes it's better not open your mouth and let people think your stupid rather than opening it and confirming you are...
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Like they say, don`t let the truth get in the way of a good story
[/quote]
My thoughts exactly, enough of the fairy tails
You can't argue facts!
FYI it did receive a trophy for Stock Honda, not 125gb...
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
FYI it did receive a trophy for Stock Honda, not 125gb...
[/quote]
So does that mean the driver cheated Dennis?........I mean running a wing in Stock Honda and collecting a trophy and club championship points in Stock Honda class. Were all the NSW Stock Honda club members asked if its OK for a winged kart to run for Stock Honda club championship points and trophy?
Good way to f**k a class but then again, it doesn't surprise me that it all originates from the same person running the club, making the wing and never having a good word to say about the Stock Honda class. What a joke your club has become and with no shame too if what you say is true, if not true then no problems.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
The competitor did seek club permission, and asked his fellow
competitor if it was fine.
His kart was scrutinized for wing install.
Competitor finished second overall and received a trophy
for his efforts, as there were no other stock Hondas there.
Did I say something stupid?
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
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Re: Rotax MAX Wing used once
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2015, 08:43:34 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote
Just to clarify for those who get a little excited. The Stock Honda who'll have a wing will be running as a 125GB kart.
???? Did I miss something.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Why? Why? Why? do we keep doing this to ourselves?
Hand controls, Four strokes, center mount tanks, tires, bodywork,
behind the scenes slander via email.
ONE person.
[i]Sorry I'm delusional.[/i]
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I can tell you I have at least 10 of the best going over from SA. If you want to race , and who does not want to beat the Vics, then how about joining us at this event ??
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
So with the NSW club doing its own thing on this winged wonder idea, we are in the dark as far as the numbers who are willing to race on the outside. How many are looking to go to PI in August for the CAMS NGB National event ??
I can tell you I have at least 10 of the best going over from SA. If you want to race , and who does not want to beat the Vics, then how about joining us at this event ??
[/quote]
Ian,
In NSW there is only 2x NGB guys that possibly race interstate, that being Alan Dodge and Mark Vickers, the rest have been hypnotised to sit around and have a wank on how the kart looks (colours/wings/noses). As soon as there is anything at track that resembles real or competitive racing, the fun police turn up with their intimidation polices.
As of 2016, Australian Superkarting will only have the provision to have a interstate fairy floss festival instead of a "CAMS Australian Superkart Championship". This would now make for a perfect opportunity to sit around and wank over wings and things.
(see document link)
[url=http://docs.cams.com.au/Public%20Documents/Motor%20Sport%20Documents/CAMS_AMRC_Strategic%20Group_20150629.pdf]http://docs.cams.com.au/Public%20Documents/Motor%20Sport%20Documents/CAMS_AMRC_Strategic%20Group_20150629.pdf[/url]
[URL=http://s1238.photobucket.com/user/samzavaglia/media/CAMS%20Superkarting.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff482/samzavaglia/CAMS%20Superkarting.jpg[/img][/URL]
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
No-one has ever noticed us until they now come in and give us a kicking.
So what happens next ??
I'd put money on the SKA are trying to save their thin skins by putting together a proposal to be the sole promoter allowed to run the various Superkart state Championships. What a waste of their time, certainly a cobbled road if they tried that in either of the Southern states..
Right here and now I will say that the only successful way to move forward from this point is to have the states return to running a single round Superkart state championship in each of their states. That will allow interstate competitors to choose to do an event over the border, like NSW drivers can go up to Qld , and south to Vic. Then South Aussies can go to Vic , and the Vics likewise go the other way and up to NSW.
From this small interpollenation the sport can again re-grow its grass-roots and if in time the numbers go up then in 5 or 10 years the CLUB's can go ask CAMS if we may again promote a National Championship event. Run at a single event and run by a club.
This keeps all the money within the sport for a start, and it restricts or even discourages clubs holding events with other categories which have proven over the past 10 years to take competitors away from the Superkart categories.
I am all for in the current position that we turn around and look 180 degrees directly backwards. We go back to what worked for us for 20 or 30 years and emulate that. If that succeeds then we take a step forward. If it does not then we have already tried the "other" way and we know that is not the answer.
You can shoot the messenger if you like, but the sport was a success in the 70's, 80's and 90's, and we need to go and do exactly that again.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
My very simple question is what is happening in Qld ?? If the wings on Max's made them so popular in NSW, has their nearest neighbour followed suit and done the same with their karts ?? Has it worked for them in more visibility and translated to more numbers of karts ??
Gotta ask as there does not seem to be much else happening -- someone has gotta get the boat floated and underway.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
no rotax max wings up here.
I wonder who the NSW heavy weight was? I suspect it might be the person the Ex Cook called the Birdman but I am only guessing.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
[center][/center][img]https://db.tt/VEeKG67Y[/img]
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
How many NGB Karts are there in Sydney?
How many have fitted wings?
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
So I'll ask the question.
How many NGB Karts are there in Sydney?
How many have fitted wings?
[/quote]
There are around 20 NGB karts in total, about one third have wings with more to come.
They are "Optional", but how good do they look...
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
No-one is questioning or not understanding the fact that the wings are optional, we understand that. Where we have an impediment is that all events, 100% of them, in SA are run under CAMS and there is no option at all for us to run a wing on a Rotax Max kart.
My addition to this topic was to enquire whether this optional extra part had done anything for the numbers in NSW, and secondly whether if that success was self evident enough that the Qld club followed suit. Had both these scenarios been in the positive, I would have followed it up.
So far this could only realistically be done in NSW and Qld as in those states the percentage of non_CAMS events to CAMS events is like 5:1 or more. The fitting of a wing requires more than a little time and effort, and there is a cost. As a complete outsider to the states where this was possible I was just asking if that had been seen as a positive change or another idea like the 450cc 4 strokes that just padded the rule book out a bit further but made no advances to the sport overall.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Has it attracted more people into the club probably not, but that wasn't the
reason I started the idea of a rear wing.
Most of our members in the NSW club do like the wing, so I suppose that's why more wings are getting made.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Let him bang on. I never tire of his antics.
THREE states aren't worried about a wing, not that I'm against it, but the masses (and people that race the class) have shown they can get a Superkart look if they want it or just don't give a shit.
So MY thought is, I doubt you'll get much support from THREE States on making it a CAMS rule.
Then again with the sway power some people have it's probably being written as I write this.
I know, I'm delusional, and like it that way.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
You can no longer buy a standard Rotax Max , only the EVO is available, so we are now discouraging newcomers to the sport by not allowing them to buy a new engine and come race.
We need the NSA to be "active" in all its doings, otherwise we sit on our hands and get nowhere.
Its time for another shakeup I think , 4 states with 2 representatives each at NSA level is not workable when every vote is 2 to 2, and self interest groups can ensure nothing goes ahead.
The other topic is tyres. Sooner rather than later there will be no more SL6's or MG reds, the choices will slim to nothing and then we won't even be able to race.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
As you said Ian "Its time for another shakeup I think , 4 states with 2 representatives each at NSA level is not workable when every vote is 2 to 2, and self interest groups can ensure nothing goes ahead"
We need to put our sport first so we can evolve and move forward and strengthen our position. Too many people are short sighted and just can't see the big picture, be it the Evo motor or the wing.
All the states need to stop self sabotaging our sport!
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
http://docs.cams.com.au/Regulations/Bulletins/2015%20Bulletins/B15-037%20Superkart%20Technical%20Regualtions.pdf
EVO approved by the look of it.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
It was probably in the fine print below the latest hat and T shirt offer.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
I put up an alternative tyre list to be discussed and will follow that up again. It retained SL6 and MG red but also put in the alternatives coming through such as DFM/H and MG red/white. Also Maxxis SLR and the new Bridgestone.
Cheers
Rod.
[/quote]
Hi Rod,
what did the proposal say exactly? Reason why I ask is that I have seen somewhere that the Maxxis HG3 might be available again very soon. Might have something to do with Ian Williams but not sure. MOJO is still available but is too expensive and doesn't last long from our experience with them.
If you have a look at this link, http://www.karting.net.au/media/technical/2016/2016%20DUNLOP%20TYRE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf, the Dunlop paperwork says the Dunlop DFM has a shore hardness of 49.4 which is about the same as a MG Yellow. All the current tyres are SL type tyres that have a shore hardness of 60.
The MG tyre homologation KA paper can be seen at this link http://www.karting.net.au/media/technical/2016/2016%20MG%20TYRE%20SPECIFICATIONS.pdf . Shame the put the shore hardness of the MG White/ Red down as 60 when its actually 59 and are now the same price as a yellow.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Would definitely NOT be looking to include that in our classes.
The Maxxis HG3's are back in production, a hire kart centre that imports its own Maxxis tyres has ordered them and the first shipment of 130 sets are already on their way to Australia.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
DPE have about 1500 sets of MG reds in stock they tell me a few weeks ago so they are not likely to run out in the near future. They will continue to keep them in stock for Australia and they are still used in NZ.
I think as long as any tyre has a shore hardness of 60 or more, it should be ok.
The Hoosier R60, not R60A, would also be a good addition to the list but are a bit pricey.
The Rotax Sprintkart chassis is designed around an "SL" or Sports Leisure tyre so they are cost effective to run. This is why the chassis are a bit stiffer etc so they work the tyre harder to get the same grip out of a harder tyre. What KA have done using that DFM is strange, but not surprising.
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
https://www.dunlop.eu/dunlop_dede/Images/Dunlop-Kartreifen-10X450-5%20DFH-CIK-Option_tcm430-153253.pdf
http://www.dunlop.eu/dunlop_dede/Images/Dunlop-Kartreifen-11X710-5%20DFH-CIK-Option_tcm430-153262.pdf
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
Has anyone thought of putting wings on Rotax to make them look more like a superkart....? I like the idea
Thoughts.....
I'll get my coat....
Re: Wing on the Rotax Max Karts
they do look good thats for sure. Wayne's black and pink rotax looks very cool. I wonder if a submission will be put in for rotax and stock Honda to have the option to fit one soon? No, it won't come from me.