Results from the weekend's round of MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park 31/08/2014
The biggest National/ICE class racing in the world :o
Results: http://www.tsl-timing.com/barc/2014/143522f25.pdf
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV_C13M-6Vo
Thanks again for the excellent Video from Sam Moss:
Great drive again from the back Sam :) - it is a real pity that your kart speed drops as the race goes on because it looks like your driving is taking you forward with each lap. :'(
Hope you can find the problem because I liked to see you battling up front with Paul and Gavin . :)
BTW - Sam, why are you running a 125cc motor in the kart at times ??? Appears that there are a number of your fellow drivers are doing the same.
regards
Allan.
Comments17
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Yes, the DEA is going well but still not a must have option yet. 8)
Yes, it would be good to see video's from Paul and Gavin's karts - would be a good view.
It is a pity they miss the best marketing opportunity for Superkarting and their relative Kart manufacturers/Sponsors by keeping it to themselves.
Regards
Allan.
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
what happened with the Yammy over there? I guess that is why you went over.
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
It has been a while since I was up the sharp end, sometimes you need that extra bit of luck :)
Ashley I doubt you'll ever see videos from the front running guys, especially with data overlay! People feel they have too many secrets to show off.. ::)
Dan's Honda does very well to keep up with Paul + Gavin, but I imagine some good driving by Dan certainly helps with that.
Allan, I run the 125 Motor because I tended to go to the 125 meetings for a bit of extra running and thought I may as well run with them guys than on my own with the 250, and would say its great fun to drive and harder racing than in the 250 as its more about the driver than outright power.
Scott it was good meeting you although the bar shutting at 11.30 was piss poor, bit of a let down in comparison to previous years! I think I crawled into bed some time around 2am :) Hopefully one day I'll come visit the land down under.. ;D
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Thanks for your comments about the 125 class. I didn’t realise that you run different race meetings for the 125cc class as we combine those classes together here.
Sam, if I had to have guess at your motor problem, I would suspect too much ignition timing in some of the rpm range. It is a pity you don’t run a detonation counter as you could confirm this straight away, but the fact that it pulls more top speed in the first lap and then slows as the temperature soaks into the motor might be an indicator. ???
Hi Scott,
That is Interesting what you said about the DEA needing to be changed between races. The laps times in Warm Up show some speed but did not seems to be as fast in the race - never the less, they are up there and if their development continues; they should be able to sort it out. :-\
From my point of view, I am happy that the CR250 is still competitive and that is good for our class here and possible over in the UK too. :) From the time sheets, Paul was running his Honda and appeared to be as quick as Gavin in the race. :)
Sam, how do you feel about the EVO motors and is there a positive feeling among other CR250 drivers towards them. ???
Regards
Allan.
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Interestingly the DEA was being rotated and rebuilt after every session!!
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Uneducated guess but that's what I would do if I needed to test heaps of different engine setups within little time. Have 2 motors, swap motors between races and change config on the engine on bench, swap motors again, change config etc etc round and round it goes. If it was needing repair from blowups using same engine config each time, different story.
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Allan, Paul Platt was running a Redspeed GasGas. Think it was a first GP win for both GasGas and Hoosier tyres.
Sam M, yeah pity about the band ending early, we did kick on though!! There's always a kart here you can run if you get your skinny ass down here.
Ashley, yam had issues..... Ignition related piston issues! Found more hp on the dyno over there but in my eyes ignition was set wrong. Didn't help that they were running different pipe, piston, carby, ignition & fuel to what we run here!
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Hi Sam,
Thanks for your comments about the 125 class. I didn’t realise that you run different race meetings for the 125cc class as we combine those classes together here.
Sam, if I had to have guess at your motor problem, I would suspect too much ignition timing in some of the rpm range. It is a pity you don’t run a detonation counter as you could confirm this straight away, but the fact that it pulls more top speed in the first lap and then slows as the temperature soaks into the motor might be an indicator. ???
Sam, how do you feel about the EVO motors and is there a positive feeling among other CR250 drivers towards them. ???
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I guess we are lucky we have more competitors in a small area so meetings are split into classes with usually 250 / 450 on one grid and 125's on another. We have struggled this year with 125 numbers, 15 being the lowest at Snetterton + Anglesey, but Brands had around 20 and we had 31 at the GP although 5 were KZ2.
It could change next year though as people seem to prefer meetings like we had at Anglesey / Cadwell were both classes are running on the same weekend so I may have to choose one or the other next year.
Det isn't an issue on our motor and in one way lucky it hasn't been for a long while since we swapped to the HPI Ignition instead of the PVL Digital years ago. We have had trouble with trapping rings and taking the exhaust side of the piston top off, but that can be a mixture of things such as running too lean like we did in race 1 at the weekend. Went back up a jet and ran safe for the rest of the weekend :D
About the EVO motors, i'm sure you guys see all the handbag fights on facebook ;D I think there is a definite improvement in speed on the new motors, but there is no need to change because the expected improvement of reliability isn't there yet so there is little to be gained at the minute. It seems everybody is happy to race with the package they have at the minute.
[quote author=Raceroz link=topic=2409.msg26516#msg26516 date=1409893908]
Could be right, uneducated me just thought they were changing piston & rings every session because of wear issues.....
Allan, Paul Platt was running a Redspeed GasGas. Think it was a first GP win for both GasGas and Hoosier tyres.
Sam M, yeah pity about the band ending early, we did kick on though!! There's always a kart here you can run if you get your skinny ass down here.
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On my paddock walks the DEA(s) seem to be out of the kart more than in. As far as I know Gav's DNF at Silverstone was due to a broken piston ring. Also if you are thinking of the DEA paddock rumour here is good luck trying to get one. You may be able to buy the kit engine but not the Carb, Exhaust + Ignition system that goes with it.. Paddock rumour of course ???
If I have a skinny ass does that mean you can fit an engine with 2 cylinders at the side of me ??? :D
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Hi Sam,
What EGT reading do you look for to keep it safe?
I have noticed that you have been as high as 700c on occasions :o
I understood from Ian's comments on the forum that the unleaded fuel that you use over there has a narrow optimum range but I did not know that it is within a one jet range - that makes it very hard to manage on the racing budget.
In regards to the DEA, do you know if they are running ELF SK 35 fuel or is it not allowed?
Regards
Allan.
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Hi Sam,
What EGT reading do you look for to keep it safe?
I have noticed that you have been as high as 700c on occasions :o
I understood from Ian's comments on the forum that the unleaded fuel that you use over there has a narrow optimum range but I did not know that it is within a one jet range - that makes it very hard to manage on the racing budget.
In regards to the DEA, do you know if they are running ELF SK 35 fuel or is it not allowed?
Regards
Allan.
[/quote]
We have never had trouble running 660-680 before which is why I was quite surprised with the seize in Race 1 as it never felt like it was slowing down at all. The first few laps I had much better top speed simply because I was able to grab a little bit of slipstream :D Need to fit another set of pedals when I'm running on my own ;D
When the exhaust was running rather hot at 700+ it was when we had trouble with the cylinder sealing properly with the o-rings it somehow kept managing to burn them away :( All sorted now of course, but I do prefer the 125 way where they make the o-ring grooves in the cylinder rather than the head.
The fuel is even a pain on the 125 sadly. I have come in with a white plug a few times :o but luckily with it being a KZ spec motor I have bit more room for error. I'd still use it over pump fuel any day though.
In the DEA they will be running the Carless fuel as Gavin is registered for the MSA championship. I have heard the Elf fuel is pretty good to use and a more clean fuel, but I've also heard its quite a bit more £££ per litre..
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
In terms of the new vs. old engine discussion, I have plucked out the 4 fastest times from the Sunday warm-up. Of course Dan, Sam, Toby were not in the game for whatever reason, but I think it gives an indication of the state of play.
1. Paul PLATT PVP/Redspeed GasGas 1:25.762
2. Gavin BENNETT Anderson/DEA 1:25.871
3. Ross ALLEN Jade/Honda 1:26.252
4. James O’REILLY PVP/Viper SK250 1:26.391
Gavin was out in both mixed warm-up sessions and did a faster time, but that of course was using the twin!!
The new engines are now firmly in the game and development will continue apace. You have to remember that the 2001 Honda has some 13 years development behind it and the WIWA GasGas about 8-10 (I think?).
The Viper SK250S, DEA and THR are at the beginning of their game and will of course make bigger strides, at least initially.
Clearly you have to have the right driver/chassis/setup, but the guys listed and mentioned above are at the top of the game in all respects, so comparisons can and will be drawn.
Personally, I finished building James' Viper SK250S engine at the track on Friday. James and his dad spent the rest of the day installing it in his kart and we got only 3 or 4 laps running in the last session on the Friday afternoon. There were a few mods including a new exhaust design, ignition and head insert. None of that had been tested prior to the meeting and as might be expected we had a few "installation problems" (water system, etc.), but no engine problems. Unfortunately we won't have James for the next round at Snetterton, but hopefully we will for the last round at Cadwell, when we will be fully ready, tested and looking for wins. When the water temp gauge started showing fluctuating high readings in the GP and given the previous water system problems, he pulled off with a couple of laps to go, from what would have been an easy 4th, only for us to find a faulty temp sensor to be the cause!!
In terms of the DEA, I know they were trying a couple of different configurations necessitating changes of engine, but it's not for me to say.
I do believe that the new engines will have better reliability and increased service intervals, due to the quality of components being used/developed (speaking for our own engine of course). However those service parts may naturally be a bit more expensive.
At the moment I think it's a bit "you pays your money and you takes your chance" and if you look at Sam/Dan/Ross/Toby, etc. there is no lack of real pace with the established engines, and long may that continue. Last thing we want is to loose any competitors who might feel disenfranchised.
In terms of fuel and EGT, Allan. 680 seems to be pretty good all round with the Mikuni TMX carb and our Carless MSA 2T fuel. I always watched Sam's videos showing 725 EGT with one eye closed waiting for the bang!! However, water ingress (head 'O'-Ring), will always cause detonation and consequently give high EGT's. The Carless is just a (consistent) Super unleaded pump spec fuel (99 Octane), nothing akin to the ELF SK35.
Great to meet Scott as well, although I didn't attend the after hours drinks party (my son Mark rolled in about 3.00am) - I'm told Black Sambuca was the drink of choice, so perhaps as well I opted for an early night ;)
As Scott said a great weekend for Hoosier with GP wins in F250 National and F125's at the first attempt. Many thanks to Paul Platt and Chris Needham for their efforts.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
I ran premium unleaded recently in my kart with a Det counter fitted and I can confirm that it was equally sensitive to the correct jet. It was not so much from a performance aspect but a detonation aspect.
Personally, I would not run unleaded without a Det counter because I found it that sensitive. I was also surprised just where in the RPM it did detonate; it was not always at full noise as you might expect. This is just my experience so I appreciate you might have a different insight. :)
Ian/Sam, do you find the CR250 2005 cylinder any better than the 2003-04 in term of performance or it just easier to modify ???
Best regards
Allan.
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
I can speak for both myself and Sam regarding the '05 cylinder as I prepare Sam's cylinders. The 4 advantages with the '05 cylinder are that:
1. It's stronger overall (if a bit heavier)
2. It's easier to wok on due to the removable cylinder front (certain aspects).
3. The exhaust port centre bridge is a little less prone to cracking.
4. Get's rid of the mess associated with Devconning the '02 powervalves
However, it does require quite a bit more removal of material from the transfers, which means more tedious work with the air-grinder!
Having said all that there is no reason that the pre and post 2005 cylinders can't produce exactly the same results.
I'm a little surprised at your det results, we generally find no detonation before 10,000rpm or after 11,200rpm unless we do something totally daft!!. With the majority being grouped around 10,700-11,100.
You have to be very careful if using an RS125 det counter on a CR250 as it's way too sensitive and you'll register mechanical noise (and what I have come to term, "non-damaging det", which will be affected by compression/ignition/mixture). We used this setup on James' kart at Cadwell. In one session we registered 1,600 dets :o. When I removed the head I could count 8 clearly defined pin-head dets on the piston!! Honda do also manufacture a sensor suitable for a 250cc single which will work with the same system and give realistic figures. They are, however, difficult to get hold of.
Best Regards
Ian :)
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Anyway here is my video from Race 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnPn1cCtDoM
I have a little trip on the grass on Lap 2, doesn't brake so well on the green stuff :o
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
Unfortunately we didn't get much chance to watch it for long, with Sam taking to the green stuff at the Gooseneck.
Definitely getting there though!
Cheers,
Ian :)
Re: MSA British Championship - Cadwell Park Aug 31st 2014
I was using two April System sensors on the motor; one for the AIM logger and one for a HRC Det Counter. Both had the same amount of Dets counted and it appeared to be accurate from the inspection afterwards.
But as you say, different mechanical construction - not a CR250; it was on a 125. The April System sensors have adjustable sensitivity and while I had it correct for the 125, I might have to change that setting for the CR250. :-\
Regards
Allan.