If you ask me I would have to say yes.
On Thursday night KNSW tribunal heard two cases involving unlicensed drivers using a KA track. One was for practicing without a licence and one was for racing without a licence.
Here is the problem ....A driver happens to miss his/her license renewal email in amongst the plethora of spam he or she may receive. a few weeks later they register on CMS for a race meeting. They arrive at the track on race day and pay their race entry fee which is registered on live cms. The entry is accepted and allowed to race with all results recorded. BUT the driver doesn't have a valid license as it expired the day before. So .... who's fault is it? and if CMS didn't pick up the expired license, how could the club at which the driver is racing be expected to? Isn't CMS the only way this can be done on a weekend? I am sure KNSW is not available to check. Should the driver be penalized given that CMS allowed him/her to race? surely for first offence a warning would suffice?
Problem number two.
This is a disgrace.
Recently the Canberra club was suspended because an unlicensed driver practiced on their track. The club followed protocol and had the driver fill out the practice sheet and then as required sent the sheet up to KNSW. After an investigation by KNSW (not sure why in the first place) they discovered one driver had practiced without a license. The club was fined $1000 and the track was closed for 1 month. The question is, How is the club expected to know if the drivers license is valid for practice?
What KNSW is essentially asking the clubs to do now is to ensure there is always a committee or sub-committee member present at the track at any time there is someone practicing. This is the only way they can police the status of licence holders. It will be something like this....
."Excuse me sir can you please fill out and sign this practice sheet before you practice? .... ok Thanks for that now if you can just hold on for a while so I can check to see if your licence is indeed current .... thanks I will get back to in a short while".
Then we will have to call KNSW to check the licence because as we have recently seen, CMS isnt always up to date and may not accurately represent the licence holders status. .... Phone goes to answering machine ... no one is in the office .... go back to the driver waiting to practice and .....
"I'm sorry sir KNSW is not answering the phone, (or isn't open because its the weekend) and we can't verify that your licence is valid. CMS cannot be relied on as a source of accurate and up to date information regarding your licence, I cannot allow you to use this facility without verification of your license status.....Please either wait longer or come back next weekend after we have verified this during the week. thank you sir ... come again.....................
Are they serious up there in karting land? Again I say, this decision is a disgrace. How can they as such a powerful force in karting, not see how ridiculous and unreasonable this is?
Is it just me? or there something seriously wrong here?
Comments12
Why can't the karter signing the practice sheet also show their KA Licence at the same time, the currency of same can be checked on CMS as to expiry date?
Problem ONE
CMS should have picked this up immediately he entered via CMS, if it cannot do this IT SHOUD BE MADE ABLE TO DO SO ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. should the club be penalised no. But ALL drivers will need to ensure at renewal time they renew successfully. two way street, but CMS should pick this up.
Problem 2
Sadly it was a requirement to have a non participating club member at ALL private practice days, would expect It to be same today, mainly for a] safety reasons ie if the driver hurt himself help was there etc b] to ensure fees were paid, paperwork signed etc. c]no unauthorised persons entered the track area etc.
yes it IS a pain to have someone there, been there done that many times myself but in todays litigious society we risk big penalties if we operate outside the laws. there is ONE track in CENTRAL COAST NSW some years ago were very very lucky to get away with an incident that occurred in very similar situation ie unauthorised practice session and a big injury occurring had the driver known his rights that track would be history today as the AKA insurance would not have covered that situation and thr club would have been left alone to fight the case.
EVERY club should be aware that if the rules are broken like this it exposes the club to possible litigation WITHOUT the backing of the KA insurance policy, insurance companies will look to get out of paying if they can and they will look hard f the case is a big one. If this driver was unlicensed [ therefore uninsured] and hurt himself the insurance company woul simply say sorry NO coverage available. the club is on its own.
There is no expiry date on the license. CMS recently showed us it isn't current as it allowed an unlicensed driver to sign up and race. the only sure way to check is to call KNSW.
richard gagie said:
Why can't the karter signing the practice sheet also show their KA Licence at the same time, the currency of same can be checked on CMS as to expiry date?
I agree with you about the safety aspect Paul. But this had nothing to do with that. Even if there had been a club member there that person cant check if the license is current without a call to KNSW. On a weekend that cant happen. If CMS was always up to date we could but it isnt as was proven two weeks ago. If KNSW or KA are going to lay down the law they must surely be held accountable when the system they use doesn't work?
Having a club member there isnt a requirement these days so far as I know but it is a requirement to have a second person at the track in case of accidents etc....
In the case of the unlicensed driver practicing, the club should have at the very most received a warning as it did all that was required to do. I don't believe there is a requirement for every person practicing at the track to go through a license validity check. All they have to do is fill out the practice form. There is no way a member or anyone else can check that validity for sure on a weekend. This situation was handled poorly by KNSW. The club is one of the only ones to send practice sheets regularly and look what happened. If they had failed to send them as most clubsdo nothing would have happened.
Thanks for your comments
Paul Hewitt said:
Problem ONE
CMS should have picked this up immediately he entered via CMS, if it cannot do this IT SHOUD BE MADE ABLE TO DO SO ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. should the club be penalised no. But ALL drivers will need to ensure at renewal time they renew successfully. two way street, but CMS should pick this up.
Problem 2
Sadly it was a requirement to have a non participating club member at ALL private practice days, would expect It to be same today, mainly for a] safety reasons ie if the driver hurt himself help was there etc b] to ensure fees were paid, paperwork signed etc. c]no unauthorised persons entered the track area etc.
yes it IS a pain to have someone there, been there done that many times myself but in todays litigious society we risk big penalties if we operate outside the laws. there is ONE track in CENTRAL COAST NSW some years ago were very very lucky to get away with an incident that occurred in very similar situation ie unauthorised practice session and a big injury occurring had the driver known his rights that track would be history today as the AKA insurance would not have covered that situation and thr club would have been left alone to fight the case.
EVERY club should be aware that if the rules are broken like this it exposes the club to possible litigation WITHOUT the backing of the KA insurance policy, insurance companies will look to get out of paying if they can and they will look hard f the case is a big one. If this driver was unlicensed [ therefore uninsured] and hurt himself the insurance company woul simply say sorry NO coverage available. the club is on its own.
Alfred
I agree there MUST be a way clubs can check licence validity instantly, its not impossible, and as for no expiry date on a licence well that's just stupid. KA and KNSW should get their act together and ensure this doesn't happen or cannot happen again.
Maybe club membership should equal licence membership [ Aust wide] IF a driver fronts up to a practice day shows his club membership card and its in date = licence is valid = safe to practice, this can be avoided if licences are also dated and in paper form so clubs cn easily verify compliance etc
doesn't have to be so hard really KA should have the systems in place to make it easy. Alfred Fripp said:
I agree with you about the safety aspect Paul. But this had nothing to do with that. Even if there had been a club member there that person cant check if the license is current without a call to KNSW. On a weekend that cant happen. If CMS was always up to date we could but it isnt as was proven two weeks ago. If KNSW or KA are going to lay down the law they must surely be held accountable when the system they use doesn't work?
Having a club member there isnt a requirement these days so far as I know but it is a requirement to have a second person at the track in case of accidents etc....
In the case of the unlicensed driver practicing, the club should have at the very most received a warning as it did all that was required to do. I don't believe there is a requirement for every person practicing at the track to go through a license validity check. All they have to do is fill out the practice form. There is no way a member or anyone else can check that validity for sure on a weekend. This situation was handled poorly by KNSW. The club is one of the only ones to send practice sheets regularly and look what happened. If they had failed to send them as most clubsdo nothing would have happened.
Thanks for your comments
Paul Hewitt said:
Problem ONE
CMS should have picked this up immediately he entered via CMS, if it cannot do this IT SHOUD BE MADE ABLE TO DO SO ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. should the club be penalised no. But ALL drivers will need to ensure at renewal time they renew successfully. two way street, but CMS should pick this up.
Problem 2
Sadly it was a requirement to have a non participating club member at ALL private practice days, would expect It to be same today, mainly for a] safety reasons ie if the driver hurt himself help was there etc b] to ensure fees were paid, paperwork signed etc. c]no unauthorised persons entered the track area etc.
yes it IS a pain to have someone there, been there done that many times myself but in todays litigious society we risk big penalties if we operate outside the laws. there is ONE track in CENTRAL COAST NSW some years ago were very very lucky to get away with an incident that occurred in very similar situation ie unauthorised practice session and a big injury occurring had the driver known his rights that track would be history today as the AKA insurance would not have covered that situation and thr club would have been left alone to fight the case.
EVERY club should be aware that if the rules are broken like this it exposes the club to possible litigation WITHOUT the backing of the KA insurance policy, insurance companies will look to get out of paying if they can and they will look hard f the case is a big one. If this driver was unlicensed [ therefore uninsured] and hurt himself the insurance company woul simply say sorry NO coverage available. the club is on its own.
Yeah its not rocket science. But here we have a club penalized for the administrations shortcomings and it members missing out as a result. One could take from all this that KNSW doesn't care a lot for its members or for keeping people interested in supporting it. IS KA/KNSW possibly daring someone to break out into another non KA sanctioned racing calendar? Rumors abound. Paul Hewitt said:
Alfred
I agree there MUST be a way clubs can check licence validity instantly, its not impossible, and as for no expiry date on a licence well that's just stupid. KA and KNSW should get their act together and ensure this doesn't happen or cannot happen again.
Maybe club membership should equal licence membership [ Aust wide] IF a driver fronts up to a practice day shows his club membership card and its in date = licence is valid = safe to practice, this can be avoided if licences are also dated and in paper form so clubs cn easily verify compliance etc
doesn't have to be so hard really KA should have the systems in place to make it easy. Alfred Fripp said:
I agree with you about the safety aspect Paul. But this had nothing to do with that. Even if there had been a club member there that person cant check if the license is current without a call to KNSW. On a weekend that cant happen. If CMS was always up to date we could but it isnt as was proven two weeks ago. If KNSW or KA are going to lay down the law they must surely be held accountable when the system they use doesn't work?
Having a club member there isnt a requirement these days so far as I know but it is a requirement to have a second person at the track in case of accidents etc....
In the case of the unlicensed driver practicing, the club should have at the very most received a warning as it did all that was required to do. I don't believe there is a requirement for every person practicing at the track to go through a license validity check. All they have to do is fill out the practice form. There is no way a member or anyone else can check that validity for sure on a weekend. This situation was handled poorly by KNSW. The club is one of the only ones to send practice sheets regularly and look what happened. If they had failed to send them as most clubsdo nothing would have happened.
Thanks for your comments
Paul Hewitt said:
Problem ONE
CMS should have picked this up immediately he entered via CMS, if it cannot do this IT SHOUD BE MADE ABLE TO DO SO ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. should the club be penalised no. But ALL drivers will need to ensure at renewal time they renew successfully. two way street, but CMS should pick this up.
Problem 2
Sadly it was a requirement to have a non participating club member at ALL private practice days, would expect It to be same today, mainly for a] safety reasons ie if the driver hurt himself help was there etc b] to ensure fees were paid, paperwork signed etc. c]no unauthorised persons entered the track area etc.
yes it IS a pain to have someone there, been there done that many times myself but in todays litigious society we risk big penalties if we operate outside the laws. there is ONE track in CENTRAL COAST NSW some years ago were very very lucky to get away with an incident that occurred in very similar situation ie unauthorised practice session and a big injury occurring had the driver known his rights that track would be history today as the AKA insurance would not have covered that situation and thr club would have been left alone to fight the case.
EVERY club should be aware that if the rules are broken like this it exposes the club to possible litigation WITHOUT the backing of the KA insurance policy, insurance companies will look to get out of paying if they can and they will look hard f the case is a big one. If this driver was unlicensed [ therefore uninsured] and hurt himself the insurance company woul simply say sorry NO coverage available. the club is on its own.
Alfred
one wonders sometimes, agree if the system isn't enabling a club to comply they should not be penalised for it. should have been warned first second breach then ok, but f they had this system in place breaches simply wouldn't occur. Alfred Fripp said:
Yeah its not rocket science. But here we have a club penalized for the administrations shortcomings and it members missing out as a result. One could take from all this that KNSW doesn't care a lot for its members or for keeping people interested in supporting it. IS KA/KNSW possibly daring someone to break out into another non KA sanctioned racing calendar? Rumors abound. Paul Hewitt said:
Alfred
I agree there MUST be a way clubs can check licence validity instantly, its not impossible, and as for no expiry date on a licence well that's just stupid. KA and KNSW should get their act together and ensure this doesn't happen or cannot happen again.
Maybe club membership should equal licence membership [ Aust wide] IF a driver fronts up to a practice day shows his club membership card and its in date = licence is valid = safe to practice, this can be avoided if licences are also dated and in paper form so clubs cn easily verify compliance etc
doesn't have to be so hard really KA should have the systems in place to make it easy. Alfred Fripp said:
I agree with you about the safety aspect Paul. But this had nothing to do with that. Even if there had been a club member there that person cant check if the license is current without a call to KNSW. On a weekend that cant happen. If CMS was always up to date we could but it isnt as was proven two weeks ago. If KNSW or KA are going to lay down the law they must surely be held accountable when the system they use doesn't work?
Having a club member there isnt a requirement these days so far as I know but it is a requirement to have a second person at the track in case of accidents etc....
In the case of the unlicensed driver practicing, the club should have at the very most received a warning as it did all that was required to do. I don't believe there is a requirement for every person practicing at the track to go through a license validity check. All they have to do is fill out the practice form. There is no way a member or anyone else can check that validity for sure on a weekend. This situation was handled poorly by KNSW. The club is one of the only ones to send practice sheets regularly and look what happened. If they had failed to send them as most clubsdo nothing would have happened.
Thanks for your comments
Paul Hewitt said:
Problem ONE
CMS should have picked this up immediately he entered via CMS, if it cannot do this IT SHOUD BE MADE ABLE TO DO SO ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE. should the club be penalised no. But ALL drivers will need to ensure at renewal time they renew successfully. two way street, but CMS should pick this up.
Problem 2
Sadly it was a requirement to have a non participating club member at ALL private practice days, would expect It to be same today, mainly for a] safety reasons ie if the driver hurt himself help was there etc b] to ensure fees were paid, paperwork signed etc. c]no unauthorised persons entered the track area etc.
yes it IS a pain to have someone there, been there done that many times myself but in todays litigious society we risk big penalties if we operate outside the laws. there is ONE track in CENTRAL COAST NSW some years ago were very very lucky to get away with an incident that occurred in very similar situation ie unauthorised practice session and a big injury occurring had the driver known his rights that track would be history today as the AKA insurance would not have covered that situation and thr club would have been left alone to fight the case.
EVERY club should be aware that if the rules are broken like this it exposes the club to possible litigation WITHOUT the backing of the KA insurance policy, insurance companies will look to get out of paying if they can and they will look hard f the case is a big one. If this driver was unlicensed [ therefore uninsured] and hurt himself the insurance company woul simply say sorry NO coverage available. the club is on its own.
That doesn't sound right to me. Check with RV, he's done more CMS set ups than most.
Everything I have talked about happened in the last 3 weeks. one driver fined $100, club fined $1000 and closed for a month Graeme Hancock said:
That doesn't sound right to me. Check with RV, he's done more CMS set ups than most.
Every time I've been involved in entry confirmations, the licence number is entered and the licence page comes up with the appropriate details including expiry date. Expired licences are highlighted in red.
Sounds to me like the entire story is not being told...
No doubt that this is the whole story Brenton.The drivers licence was expired and the entry was allowed. No red flags, nothing at all to notify the clerks who were accepting entries that the licence had expired. CMS just missed it. That's the whole story. I agree with you about the process. That's what is supposed to happen. Entry's were live and race results were published to CMS throughout the day with out any form of alert. Brenton Taylor said:
Every time I've been involved in entry confirmations, the licence number is entered and the licence page comes up with the appropriate details including expiry date. Expired licences are highlighted in red. Sounds to me like the entire story is not being told...
if that's the case Alfred then no penalty should be issued if the system failed. Alfred Fripp said:
No doubt that this is the whole story Brenton.The drivers licence was expired and the entry was allowed. No red flags, nothing at all to notify the clerks who were accepting entries that the licence had expired. CMS just missed it. That's the whole story. I agree with you about the process. That's what is supposed to happen. Entry's were live and race results were published to CMS throughout the day with out any form of alert. Brenton Taylor said:
Every time I've been involved in entry confirmations, the licence number is entered and the licence page comes up with the appropriate details including expiry date. Expired licences are highlighted in red. Sounds to me like the entire story is not being told...