I got one of each with all the gear connected to it. I think I can answer your question better than anyone else. Do you know how much the answer cost me? ........and you expect an honest, accurate answer for free ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Since you got a RS250, purchase my Yamaha with all the gear connected to it and you too can find out as well. ;)
C'mon Ant, I want to trade one of my karts for a full concrete driveway and some home renovations. ;)
Otherwise watch my TZ go at Phillip Island if I still own it....... ;)
The inaccurate measurement from the axle/wheel diameter input says 232kph. The no variables measurement directly from the AIM GPS says 227kph. But I'm cheating because I actually have 101% throttle opening. :D
Reliable HP, low maintence, cheap AVGAS, C'mon someone I need a new driveway. ;D
Ant why don't you compare the 2 engines to a modern inline maybe Scotty can give you some insight into them or ask Russell Jamieson how he compares his new engine to the old one it seems alot quicker based on his times at EC and the most recent race at Morgan Park;) ;)
I would consider a inline if they had a japanese gearbox behind them. ;) I've driven a well prepared PVP and a factory owned BRC, had more false neutrals with each engine in 1 race than I've had in my entire gearbox karting career. Shifted soft, shifted firm, off the throttle....wait..... then on the throttle...doesn't matter. I've watched an onboard video with a DEA engine....false neutrals as well, they all do it, it's common to see and hear it when I'm racing beside them..... ;D I've never owned or used a weather station or air density meter.....all I do is look up in the sky to see if I need wet tyres or not. :D
I got the funds to own a modern inline, still not my cup of tea as yet.......
If Jamo was getting a bunch of neutrals when he did a 1:27 I'd like to see whats that thing is capable of without that problem :D
Ant: I have driven TZ's, RS's and Yamondas but they have all been at very different stages of development, so it's not really a good idea for me to compare them. Add to the fact I'm a shit driver, so really I can't give a good opinion as my driving ability determines whether I'm 2secs a lap behind everyone else, not the engine!!! The fastest kart I've driven out of those engines in a straight line is Brian's Yamonda with 2001 TZ barrels.
All in all we've all seen TZ's & RS's perform just as well as each other on the track, and we've all seen similar dyno curves from both engines. I'm sure there's more to add, but if you compare a 5KE Yamaha and a RS250 I honestly don't think there is that much in it.
RS250 has carbies are next to each other, better packaging for a webmaster? RS250 has TPS driven ignition maps for partial throttle...webmasters seem to be an on/off application so this probably doesn't make that much of a difference? TZ250's [i]seem[/i] to be more user friendly as far as reliability & tuning goes. TZ250's are cheaper in the parts department, and there seem to be plenty of spares available when you need them. Unless you buy the 2003+ powervalves, than you might as well bend over and not worry about the lube.
That info is more what I was after between the two styles.
Just looking for a cheap, upto $7k, engine package for a kart I'm putting together as a bit of a side project.
I've found a new 01 RS250, TZ250 5KE full kitted engine and a Rotax 256 with RCS gear ...
All priced around $6-7k ...
The RS does fit alot nicer on a kart with the position of carbs and bottom cylinder access seems easier than a TZ. I've heard alot of positive things with the 5ke TZ's also...
[quote author=Mike Wayne link=topic=1377.msg12434#msg12434 date=1312418698] If Jamo was getting a bunch of neutrals when he did a 1:27 I'd like to see whats that thing is capable of without that problem :D [/quote] The inline package such as Jamo's would be the quickest and proven. He can also drive to make the most of whatever package he steers. I for one am very excited and happy for the not just Russ but also Chyriss. Surely there were no neutrals in a 1:27 lap but it doesn't mean to say it is not prone to it. It wasn't Jamo's DEA that I saw onboard footage but I'm sure Jamo have looked and possibly cleaned some gearbox dogs by now. ;)
Then there are other things like being a master engine tuner to get the performance consistant and reliablable throughout the day. Did Laker say it a powervalve that wasn't working in one race.....is that related to the tune through pnematic powervalves....I'm not sure but using an educated guess.
In saying that, I beleive it is a fantastic engine as are most modern inlines, I have investigated, again not my cup of tea and in my opinion not recommended to the uneducated unless they have a knowledable/experienced engine tuner with them to spanner when they race.
Sam I agree. I'd love to buy an inline soon, I think in the next 12 months if they keep developing them and head in the right direction they'll be a very attractive option. DEA on a stockman could be interesting...
Ant: If you're looking for a reliable, low-maintenance setup for a side project, I'd go the TZ. It's stress free racing & parts are cheaper.
Just ask the SA guys how many times that have taken a barrel off their TZ's. The answer will probably be "Take the what off where? We just do chain lube, tyres & fuel!!" :)
Well it seems that Ant is looking for a $7000 engine option. The full kitted TZ that he knows about is the correct choice by a country mile for those dollars. I've seen that engine ready now in a crate, all brand new internals, complete with EVERYTHING to make it work on a kart, including the kit pipes and mufflers, loom black box and even engine mounts for webmaster!!!! The whole engine was less than 2 years old from new factory when last used with kit everything. I've also seen it run in 2003 at Laguna Seca and it kicked serious ass....with regards to lap times...1:24's..and not seen the track since after a full rebuild.
There are 2 of these engines and both can be had together for a little cheaper, just need to get it out of USA. PS..my crate will be coming home from USA in 2 weeks time ;)
Now if you think that my data above is not as quick as anything down the straight at Eastern Creek last month, you need to face realitity....seriously. I know what my TZ engine makes and know the different between others down the straight. ;)
Ant What ya need is an inline which i think is the best design for a kart but you need a jap gearbox billet cases tz rebuildable cranks and tz barrells and heads and a good igniton set up and a set of stockys pipes and you would be on a winner now get started on that project ----- or maybe someone has already ;D Then again you might blow a heap of money and go no faster than a yamonda that you already have if thats correct. The thing is that the inlines get all the development by dea,brc,fpe and others and who does all the work on the jap stuff a few in the states and good old australia and not by factories. Brian Stockman has done an awesome job with the jap engines over years and years and his karts dominated for years and still win many races and at the end of it all he is still (well one of his karts is) at the top of the leaderboard at the moment after the creek.
[quote author=Inter74 link=topic=1377.msg12460#msg12460 date=1312496731] You are spot on about the dogs, you have to maintain them and inspect them the same way you have to inspect the pistons on an RS between meetings. From what I have been told, so long as you stay on top of this you should avoide the neutrals. [/quote] Jase, You forgot to use the word [u]replace[/u] after the words maintain and inspect. ;) I inspected the gears from the PVP I used and they were in very good shape.......I'm guessing the inlines also have selector design issue as well.
Beats me why they design whole new engine cases and not incorporate a TZ or RS 250cc gearbox, selectors and clutch basket into the design.
I could be wrong but from all the info I've read the PVP seems to have less issues with gearbox wear and the FPE etc have more but the PVP cylinders don't make the best hp... I think FPE say you must use the clutch for downchange to avoid excess wear...
Without dobt the gearbox is the weak link on (all) the inlines.
The PVP runs the box faster to reduce the torque loading through the gears. This helps with tooth wear, but to be honest though it's the dogs that are more critical and particularly the "slots" in the gears that the male dog drives through. It's an angled dog in a square edged slot and that applies to all inlines.
FPE have recently changed their shifter arm to the 2-piece sliding type as used in the DEA and this can be retrofitted with a small case mod (I believe).
We have had continual "niggly" gearchange problems over the years with both our BRC and PVP engines. I have seen a (not very old) DEA put it's gearbox contents out through the bottom of the casings. FPE's were known for selection and jumping out problems, hence the "use the clutch" recommendation.
Really you want a box that you can slam through the gears and it won't miss, jump out or explode, however, availability and cost must come into the equation, plus the basis of the design is long established, so I guess that could put the RS or TZ box out as a viable alternative. Manufacturers do get generous pricing from Rotax (don't know about BRC with Aprilia).
Having said that just look at the results from Assen, barely a TZ in sight. However, Trevor certainly had no complaints about Sammy's TZ.
My impression is that the mainainance schedule (and cost) is a lot more intense on an inline than on either an RS or TZ, but let's be honest, it's about winning races and cost seems to have become a secondary consideration, even if that may be of detriment to the sport in the longer term.
Hi Guys, My experiance with inlines is as follows,
Weve always only used AVGAS/A747. Unleaded is too costly and I live 2 KM from an airport that has avgas.
Never (to date) used a shift cut although if working properly should help save dogs on gears.
Inline engines have these things, 1) gearbox dramas if you don't keep on top of things.
2) fantastic reliability and since the end of 2009, have very high torque values with compromise of un important, peak HP. (Torque wins races, HP sells engines coz thats what wank&^s think matters)!!
Concerning the neutrals explained in earlyier posts, I will explain in detail below the causes of 99.9% of the problems. The other .1% is the shift pawl roller being worn and not locking the indexing drum in its correct location. We suffered from this from 2007 - mid 2008 and we went through so many gears because of damaged dogs, its wasn't funny.
I have tried undercutting the dogs to squeeze any extra life out of the gears at the first sign of it slipping out of gear. I had special carbide cutters ground up at the correct angle and did a few sets of them in a rotary table in the mill but to be honest it only lasted perhaps one day as you go through the 30 thou hardening of the material of the gear to get rid of the fillet on the corner of the dogs to make them sharp again and the dogs are like butter then. I also cut the slot faces in the gears without dogs but the same thing happens there too as you machine through the hardening. I just put new gears in as I hate shagging around trying to keep something running as apposed to making the package faster. The gear replacement is something that is expected, excepted as a slight down side of having an inline and budgeted for at the beginning of the season.
We have always only used std 256 ratio Rotax gears apart from 1st and 6th so I will explain using std 2nd 4th and 5th gears. When I raced my old 256, (I had 3 different 256 engines prior to making the billet parts) I had the slip out of gear issues all the time and always only bought second hand gears/parts. It was always the dogs on 3 gears 5954 (5th gear main shaft), 5924 (4th gear main shaft) and 5913 (2nd gear main shaft). These are adjacent to one another and 5954 slides and locks into either 5924 or 5913 depending on what gear it is in. Most of the dramas with inline g/boxes are caused by not diagnosing the issues properly straight away and when inspecting the parts not knowing enough to know when they are shagged. The result is everything getting worse and worse.
For your info, 5954 is internally splined and when the gearbox is in both 2nd and 4th gear, both use 5954 to drive the main shaft, if there is the slightest rounding of the dogs the result is that the box will slip out of gear, normally 4th. If you kept racing with it doing this it puts unnecessary side load on the shift fork as well (which moves 5954) and over heats it leading to the fork needing replacing or worse it can overheat so much that it will melt and fly around jamming against the clutch shaft gears causing the biggest uncontrollable hand brake lock up the world has ever seen!!. So it is vital that the links between those 3 gears/ cogs are in top shape at all times. It only has to slip out of gear once and at least 2 of those 3 gears (but always 5954) needs replacing straight away. There are times when it will slip out of 3rd but that is another similar story on the other half of the main shaft's gears but pretty rare.
The Rotax 256, FPE's replacement 256 cases, SAFE water and aircooled and the BRC use the shift forks, drum and mechanisium from the 256 but the FPE tr250 (same as Anton's), PVP and DEA all use the lighter flimsy forks, drum and shifting mechanisium from the Rotax 125 gearbox engine but all inlines use the same gears and shafts made by ROTAX!!! As Ian has said, FPE has updated there shifting mechanisium and the pvp drives the box faster. Also the DEA has a similar Primmary drive option too.
A few years ago Rotax gears had a very large chamfer on the dogs from new especially 5954 and they only lasted 1 meeting before slipping out of gear but thankfully they stopped putting a large chamfer on them. The cause of many more problems during this period.
For the last 2 years, we get 2 whole nationals meetings out of those 3 delicate gears dogs mentioned above and according to our data, perhaps 1 mis shift per round. Thats alot of running and its 110% capability running at that. You just have to remember that it is a 125 gearbox with 90+ Hp going through it. ( I won't reviel our Torque figures) ;)
A cush drive is a good idea also, Anderson have one out now and BRC's is a very nice. We will be adding one of these to our package soon.
Running in, When we run in we drive at 100% throttle for all gears straight out of the gate except for when in 6th gear. For this we divide the "wind out" when in 6th into 3 segments and push the kill switch twice for 2 laps then divide into 2 segments for 2 laps with 1 push of the button and then 100% in all gears. Doing this will only loose you .4-.6 of a second a lap and the bang out the pipes sounds really cool. We have done this for 4 years now and it works 100%. Bugger going to the track puttering around like so many others do wasting both your own vital track time and holding everyone else up too.
Engine life,
Pistons/topend rebuild every 250 to 350 KM Rod big end kits Kits every 6-8 hours complete Rod kits every 12-16 hours All case bearings including gearbox case bearings and shaft seals every 6-8 hours.
I would love to tackle an inline rs/tz box engine but for starters, Does anyone know if the rs/tz clutch, shafts and gears will like being driven in the opposite dirrection? Does anyone have a ratio option chart to lend/give me Does anyone have a set of all of those components to lend me to evaluate the project?
[quote author=ABR link=topic=1377.msg12495#msg12495 date=1312762659] Peter Elkmann seemed to be the only one who had great success in Europe with a 5KE TZ ... Am I correct that the rebuild service life of a TZ is 500km on top-end and 1500km on bottom-end ? And the cranks in a TZ are rebuildable were with a RS they need to be replaced ? [/quote]
Cough cough...... TZ250....2nd in Australian Championship in 2008 (1st if not for falsely accused jumped start...later admitted by an official) TZ250....1st in Australian Championship in 2009 (6 wins and 2x 3rd place out of 8 race starts) TZ250.....with Trevor Roberts, unknown kart, unknown track, unknown engine, unknown setup, Phillip Island finished 3rd overall and was competitive.....we did not lift a barrel off over 3 days, just lube the chain and mix fuel.
Crank can be rebuilt twice from a brand new crank, meaning 3 lifes up to 2000klms each life. (My suggestion is to replace the outer main crank bearings every 1000klms)
Come to Topeka next weekend, I'll show you how to change a crank out in an RS250. ;D
Scott there is a min of 3 different ratios for each gear in the RS and TZ, some gears could have up to 6 different options freely available from the parts list.
NEVER have I or anybody I know replaced a single worn gear from an RS250. All gears that have been purchased are options......and second hand ones will do just fine. ;)
Guys The rebuild times that I have posted is what we and most if not all top European runners do. I don't like to take risks but all of those times could be dragged out probably double except for the Pistons but even they depending on clearance will live longer the 250-300km. On an inline the tandem gears have to be pulled off during a crank case disassembly and if your going to do that for a few hundred dollars its good piece of mind to replace as much as you can while its apart. A whole set of case bearings and seals is around $400AU. We use PRO X rod kits and they are cheap as at around $220AU each kit. One set we did around 2000KMS before being replaced them. If you have any piston siezures then that shortens the life of the bottom end on that cylinder too due to debris going through the engine.
Just ask your self what happens and how much to fix the outcome of a rod or bigend or main bearing faulure? Head, cylinder, piston, crankshaft, crankcases and possibly worse. With a DEA cylinder being around 2500 Euro + you have to get it here (so around $4000+ AU ish), cases around 4000 Euro etc etc, its much cheaper to make sure the engine is fresh at all times I think. You have weeks inbetween rounds so time is hardly an excuse.
Ant there are no service manuals for the 256 but the parts manual has torque settings in it. Couple this to all 4 shaft side trust clearances of 0.2-0.4mm, Bigend side clearance minimum of 0.4mm, piston to bore clearance of .055 - .08mm the rebuild shedule I meantioned above, a set of Rotax pullers, a good torque wrench, 2 timing kits, 2 dial indcators, some brians with some patence and your and engine builder. Modifing and engine is different and for this, I suggest going to a reputable tunner, we use Ian from Viper Racing in the UK. Going to him gave us 7Hp and miles more torque than our AU best.
For Rotax 256/257/128/129/130 parts, I'm your man, If I don't stock it, I can get it direct within 3 weeks if it is still made. I'm picking Ill be the cheapest in town too. ;)
[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1377.msg12498#msg12498 date=1312766946] Thanks Sam, where do I get a parts list from? [/quote] From HRC of course. http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/partslist/rs250r/2002_RS250R.pdf
TZ250 gearbox is all round much more cheaper than HRC. You can use either the 4DP-4TW gearbox or the 5KE gearbox which used a wider clutch basket to accomodate 1 extra steel and lining for the extra torque. http://www.rscycles.com/images/PDF/parts-books/03TZ250.pdf
[quote author=ABR link=topic=1377.msg12499#msg12499 date=1312767431] Sammy I know you have had great success with the TZ, I was quoting in Europe ;) [/quote] Because in Europe, the reality is that anybody with a TZ can't drive, wouldn't matter what engine you give them.....except for Elkmann. Then to purchase a brand new TZ engine in Europe was a lot of money.....same price as an inline. Then there was all this talk that Elkmann had special tuner, 1 million sets of pipes made etc etc in realitity the very same Yamaha kit ignition and barrels as mine, I saw it with my own eyes.
[quote author=Sam Zavaglia link=topic=1377.msg12500#msg12500 date=1312768156] [quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1377.msg12498#msg12498 date=1312766946] Thanks Sam, where do I get a parts list from? [/quote] From HRC of course. http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/partslist/rs250r/2002_RS250R.pdf
TZ250 gearbox is all round much more cheaper than HRC. You can use either the 4DP-4TW gearbox or the 5KE gearbox which used a wider clutch basket to accomodate 1 extra steel and lining for the extra torque. http://www.rscycles.com/images/PDF/parts-books/03TZ250.pdf [/quote]
Comments26
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
I think I can answer your question better than anyone else. Do you know how much the answer cost me?
........and you expect an honest, accurate answer for free ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Since you got a RS250, purchase my Yamaha with all the gear connected to it and you too can find out as well. ;)
C'mon Ant, I want to trade one of my karts for a full concrete driveway and some home renovations. ;)
Otherwise watch my TZ go at Phillip Island if I still own it....... ;)
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Some TZ data from 2011 Eastern Creek Nationals just as I'm turning into Turn 1. (8 degs steering wheel angle)
[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/hosting/SpeedEC.jpg[/img]
The inaccurate measurement from the axle/wheel diameter input says 232kph.
The no variables measurement directly from the AIM GPS says 227kph.
But I'm cheating because I actually have 101% throttle opening. :D
Reliable HP, low maintence, cheap AVGAS, C'mon someone I need a new driveway. ;D
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
I've driven a well prepared PVP and a factory owned BRC, had more false neutrals with each engine in 1 race than I've had in my entire gearbox karting career.
Shifted soft, shifted firm, off the throttle....wait..... then on the throttle...doesn't matter.
I've watched an onboard video with a DEA engine....false neutrals as well, they all do it, it's common to see and hear it when I'm racing beside them..... ;D
I've never owned or used a weather station or air density meter.....all I do is look up in the sky to see if I need wet tyres or not. :D
I got the funds to own a modern inline, still not my cup of tea as yet.......
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Ant: I have driven TZ's, RS's and Yamondas but they have all been at very different stages of development, so it's not really a good idea for me to compare them. Add to the fact I'm a shit driver, so really I can't give a good opinion as my driving ability determines whether I'm 2secs a lap behind everyone else, not the engine!!! The fastest kart I've driven out of those engines in a straight line is Brian's Yamonda with 2001 TZ barrels.
All in all we've all seen TZ's & RS's perform just as well as each other on the track, and we've all seen similar dyno curves from both engines. I'm sure there's more to add, but if you compare a 5KE Yamaha and a RS250 I honestly don't think there is that much in it.
RS250 has carbies are next to each other, better packaging for a webmaster?
RS250 has TPS driven ignition maps for partial throttle...webmasters seem to be an on/off application so this probably doesn't make that much of a difference?
TZ250's [i]seem[/i] to be more user friendly as far as reliability & tuning goes.
TZ250's are cheaper in the parts department, and there seem to be plenty of spares available when you need them. Unless you buy the 2003+ powervalves, than you might as well bend over and not worry about the lube.
I'm sure others can add some more pro's & con's.
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
That info is more what I was after between the two styles.
Just looking for a cheap, upto $7k, engine package for a kart I'm putting together as a bit of a side project.
I've found a new 01 RS250, TZ250 5KE full kitted engine and a Rotax 256 with RCS gear ...
All priced around $6-7k ...
The RS does fit alot nicer on a kart with the position of carbs and bottom cylinder access seems easier than a TZ. I've heard alot of positive things with the 5ke TZ's also...
Thanks ;)
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
If Jamo was getting a bunch of neutrals when he did a 1:27 I'd like to see whats that thing is capable of without that problem :D
[/quote]
The inline package such as Jamo's would be the quickest and proven. He can also drive to make the most of whatever package he steers. I for one am very excited and happy for the not just Russ but also Chyriss. Surely there were no neutrals in a 1:27 lap but it doesn't mean to say it is not prone to it. It wasn't Jamo's DEA that I saw onboard footage but I'm sure Jamo have looked and possibly cleaned some gearbox dogs by now. ;)
Then there are other things like being a master engine tuner to get the performance consistant and reliablable throughout the day. Did Laker say it a powervalve that wasn't working in one race.....is that related to the tune through pnematic powervalves....I'm not sure but using an educated guess.
In saying that, I beleive it is a fantastic engine as are most modern inlines, I have investigated, again not my cup of tea and in my opinion not recommended to the uneducated unless they have a knowledable/experienced engine tuner with them to spanner when they race.
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Ant: If you're looking for a reliable, low-maintenance setup for a side project, I'd go the TZ. It's stress free racing & parts are cheaper.
Just ask the SA guys how many times that have taken a barrel off their TZ's. The answer will probably be "Take the what off where? We just do chain lube, tyres & fuel!!" :)
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Cheers guys :)
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
The full kitted TZ that he knows about is the correct choice by a country mile for those dollars. I've seen that engine ready now in a crate, all brand new internals, complete with EVERYTHING to make it work on a kart, including the kit pipes and mufflers, loom black box and even engine mounts for webmaster!!!! The whole engine was less than 2 years old from new factory when last used with kit everything.
I've also seen it run in 2003 at Laguna Seca and it kicked serious ass....with regards to lap times...1:24's..and not seen the track since after a full rebuild.
There are 2 of these engines and both can be had together for a little cheaper, just need to get it out of USA. PS..my crate will be coming home from USA in 2 weeks time ;)
Now if you think that my data above is not as quick as anything down the straight at Eastern Creek last month, you need to face realitity....seriously. I know what my TZ engine makes and know the different between others down the straight. ;)
Roll on Phillip Island.
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
What ya need is an inline which i think is the best design for a kart but you need a jap gearbox billet cases tz rebuildable cranks and tz barrells and heads and a good igniton set up and a set of stockys pipes and you would be on a winner now get started on that project ----- or maybe someone has already ;D Then again you might blow a heap of money and go no faster than a yamonda that you already have if thats correct. The thing is that the inlines get all the development by dea,brc,fpe and others and who does all the work on the jap stuff a few in the states and good old australia and not by factories. Brian Stockman has done an awesome job with the jap engines over years and years and his karts dominated for years and still win many races and at the end of it all he is still (well one of his karts is) at the top of the leaderboard at the moment after the creek.
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
You are spot on about the dogs, you have to maintain them and inspect them the same way you have to inspect the pistons on an RS between meetings. From what I have been told, so long as you stay on top of this you should avoide the neutrals.
[/quote]
Jase,
You forgot to use the word [u]replace[/u] after the words maintain and inspect. ;)
I inspected the gears from the PVP I used and they were in very good shape.......I'm guessing the inlines also have selector design issue as well.
Beats me why they design whole new engine cases and not incorporate a TZ or RS 250cc gearbox, selectors and clutch basket into the design.
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Without dobt the gearbox is the weak link on (all) the inlines.
The PVP runs the box faster to reduce the torque loading through the gears. This helps with tooth wear, but to be honest though it's the dogs that are more critical and particularly the "slots" in the gears that the male dog drives through. It's an angled dog in a square edged slot and that applies to all inlines.
FPE have recently changed their shifter arm to the 2-piece sliding type as used in the DEA and this can be retrofitted with a small case mod (I believe).
We have had continual "niggly" gearchange problems over the years with both our BRC and PVP engines. I have seen a (not very old) DEA put it's gearbox contents out through the bottom of the casings. FPE's were known for selection and jumping out problems, hence the "use the clutch" recommendation.
Really you want a box that you can slam through the gears and it won't miss, jump out or explode, however, availability and cost must come into the equation, plus the basis of the design is long established, so I guess that could put the RS or TZ box out as a viable alternative. Manufacturers do get generous pricing from Rotax (don't know about BRC with Aprilia).
Having said that just look at the results from Assen, barely a TZ in sight. However, Trevor certainly had no complaints about Sammy's TZ.
My impression is that the mainainance schedule (and cost) is a lot more intense on an inline than on either an RS or TZ, but let's be honest, it's about winning races and cost seems to have become a secondary consideration, even if that may be of detriment to the sport in the longer term.
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
My experiance with inlines is as follows,
Weve always only used AVGAS/A747. Unleaded is too costly and I live 2 KM from an airport that has avgas.
Never (to date) used a shift cut although if working properly should help save dogs on gears.
Inline engines have these things,
1) gearbox dramas if you don't keep on top of things.
2) fantastic reliability and since the end of 2009, have very high torque values with compromise of un important, peak HP. (Torque wins races, HP sells engines coz thats what wank&^s think matters)!!
Concerning the neutrals explained in earlyier posts, I will explain in detail below the causes of 99.9% of the problems. The other .1% is the shift pawl roller being worn and not locking the indexing drum in its correct location. We suffered from this from 2007 - mid 2008 and we went through so many gears because of damaged dogs, its wasn't funny.
I have tried undercutting the dogs to squeeze any extra life out of the gears at the first sign of it slipping out of gear. I had special carbide cutters ground up at the correct angle and did a few sets of them in a rotary table in the mill but to be honest it only lasted perhaps one day as you go through the 30 thou hardening of the material of the gear to get rid of the fillet on the corner of the dogs to make them sharp again and the dogs are like butter then. I also cut the slot faces in the gears without dogs but the same thing happens there too as you machine through the hardening.
I just put new gears in as I hate shagging around trying to keep something running as apposed to making the package faster. The gear replacement is something that is expected, excepted as a slight down side of having an inline and budgeted for at the beginning of the season.
We have always only used std 256 ratio Rotax gears apart from 1st and 6th so I will explain using std 2nd 4th and 5th gears.
When I raced my old 256, (I had 3 different 256 engines prior to making the billet parts) I had the slip out of gear issues all the time and always only bought second hand gears/parts. It was always the dogs on 3 gears 5954 (5th gear main shaft), 5924 (4th gear main shaft) and 5913 (2nd gear main shaft). These are adjacent to one another and 5954 slides and locks into either 5924 or 5913 depending on what gear it is in. Most of the dramas with inline g/boxes are caused by not diagnosing the issues properly straight away and when inspecting the parts not knowing enough to know when they are shagged. The result is everything getting worse and worse.
For your info, 5954 is internally splined and when the gearbox is in both 2nd and 4th gear, both use 5954 to drive the main shaft, if there is the slightest rounding of the dogs the result is that the box will slip out of gear, normally 4th.
If you kept racing with it doing this it puts unnecessary side load on the shift fork as well (which moves 5954) and over heats it leading to the fork needing replacing or worse it can overheat so much that it will melt and fly around jamming against the clutch shaft gears causing the biggest uncontrollable hand brake lock up the world has ever seen!!.
So it is vital that the links between those 3 gears/ cogs are in top shape at all times. It only has to slip out of gear once and at least 2 of those 3 gears (but always 5954) needs replacing straight away. There are times when it will slip out of 3rd but that is another similar story on the other half of the main shaft's gears but pretty rare.
The Rotax 256, FPE's replacement 256 cases, SAFE water and aircooled and the BRC use the shift forks, drum and mechanisium from the 256 but the FPE tr250 (same as Anton's), PVP and DEA all use the lighter flimsy forks, drum and shifting mechanisium from the Rotax 125 gearbox engine but all inlines use the same gears and shafts made by ROTAX!!!
As Ian has said, FPE has updated there shifting mechanisium and the pvp drives the box faster. Also the DEA has a similar Primmary drive option too.
A few years ago Rotax gears had a very large chamfer on the dogs from new especially 5954 and they only lasted 1 meeting before slipping out of gear but thankfully they stopped putting a large chamfer on them. The cause of many more problems during this period.
For the last 2 years, we get 2 whole nationals meetings out of those 3 delicate gears dogs mentioned above and according to our data, perhaps 1 mis shift per round. Thats alot of running and its 110% capability running at that.
You just have to remember that it is a 125 gearbox with 90+ Hp going through it. ( I won't reviel our Torque figures) ;)
A cush drive is a good idea also, Anderson have one out now and BRC's is a very nice. We will be adding one of these to our package soon.
Running in,
When we run in we drive at 100% throttle for all gears straight out of the gate except for when in 6th gear. For this we divide the "wind out" when in 6th into 3 segments and push the kill switch twice for 2 laps then divide into 2 segments for 2 laps with 1 push of the button and then 100% in all gears. Doing this will only loose you .4-.6 of a second a lap and the bang out the pipes sounds really cool. We have done this for 4 years now and it works 100%. Bugger going to the track puttering around like so many others do wasting both your own vital track time and holding everyone else up too.
Engine life,
Pistons/topend rebuild every 250 to 350 KM
Rod big end kits Kits every 6-8 hours
complete Rod kits every 12-16 hours
All case bearings including gearbox case bearings and shaft seals every 6-8 hours.
I would love to tackle an inline rs/tz box engine but for starters,
Does anyone know if the rs/tz clutch, shafts and gears will like being driven in the opposite dirrection?
Does anyone have a ratio option chart to lend/give me
Does anyone have a set of all of those components to lend me to evaluate the project?
Sorry to bore you all to death ;) ;D
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Am I correct that the rebuild service life of a TZ is 500km on top-end and 1500km on bottom-end ?
And the cranks in a TZ are rebuildable were with a RS they need to be replaced ?
Is there any books or service repair manuals you can buy for the 256 style engines ?
Thanks :)
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Peter Elkmann seemed to be the only one who had great success in Europe with a 5KE TZ ...
Am I correct that the rebuild service life of a TZ is 500km on top-end and 1500km on bottom-end ?
And the cranks in a TZ are rebuildable were with a RS they need to be replaced ?
[/quote]
Cough cough......
TZ250....2nd in Australian Championship in 2008 (1st if not for falsely accused jumped start...later admitted by an official)
TZ250....1st in Australian Championship in 2009 (6 wins and 2x 3rd place out of 8 race starts)
TZ250.....with Trevor Roberts, unknown kart, unknown track, unknown engine, unknown setup, Phillip Island finished 3rd overall and was competitive.....we did not lift a barrel off over 3 days, just lube the chain and mix fuel.
Crank can be rebuilt twice from a brand new crank, meaning 3 lifes up to 2000klms each life. (My suggestion is to replace the outer main crank bearings every 1000klms)
Come to Topeka next weekend, I'll show you how to change a crank out in an RS250. ;D
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Scott there is a min of 3 different ratios for each gear in the RS and TZ, some gears could have up to 6 different options freely available from the parts list.
NEVER have I or anybody I know replaced a single worn gear from an RS250.
All gears that have been purchased are options......and second hand ones will do just fine. ;)
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Guys
The rebuild times that I have posted is what we and most if not all top European runners do. I don't like to take risks but all of those times could be dragged out probably double except for the Pistons but even they depending on clearance will live longer the 250-300km.
On an inline the tandem gears have to be pulled off during a crank case disassembly and if your going to do that for a few hundred dollars its good piece of mind to replace as much as you can while its apart. A whole set of case bearings and seals is around $400AU.
We use PRO X rod kits and they are cheap as at around $220AU each kit. One set we did around 2000KMS before being replaced them.
If you have any piston siezures then that shortens the life of the bottom end on that cylinder too due to debris going through the engine.
Just ask your self what happens and how much to fix the outcome of a rod or bigend or main bearing faulure? Head, cylinder, piston, crankshaft, crankcases and possibly worse. With a DEA cylinder being around 2500 Euro + you have to get it here (so around $4000+ AU ish), cases around 4000 Euro etc etc, its much cheaper to make sure the engine is fresh at all times I think. You have weeks inbetween rounds so time is hardly an excuse.
Ant
there are no service manuals for the 256 but the parts manual has torque settings in it. Couple this to all 4 shaft side trust clearances of 0.2-0.4mm, Bigend side clearance minimum of 0.4mm, piston to bore clearance of .055 - .08mm the rebuild shedule I meantioned above, a set of Rotax pullers, a good torque wrench, 2 timing kits, 2 dial indcators, some brians with some patence and your and engine builder.
Modifing and engine is different and for this, I suggest going to a reputable tunner, we use Ian from Viper Racing in the UK. Going to him gave us 7Hp and miles more torque than our AU best.
For Rotax 256/257/128/129/130 parts, I'm your man, If I don't stock it, I can get it direct within 3 weeks if it is still made. I'm picking Ill be the cheapest in town too. ;)
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Thanks Sam, where do I get a parts list from?
[/quote]
From HRC of course.
http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/partslist/rs250r/2002_RS250R.pdf
TZ250 gearbox is all round much more cheaper than HRC.
You can use either the 4DP-4TW gearbox or the 5KE gearbox which used a wider clutch basket to accomodate 1 extra steel and lining for the extra torque.
http://www.rscycles.com/images/PDF/parts-books/03TZ250.pdf
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
Sammy I know you have had great success with the TZ, I was quoting in Europe ;)
[/quote]
Because in Europe, the reality is that anybody with a TZ can't drive, wouldn't matter what engine you give them.....except for Elkmann.
Then to purchase a brand new TZ engine in Europe was a lot of money.....same price as an inline.
Then there was all this talk that Elkmann had special tuner, 1 million sets of pipes made etc etc in realitity the very same Yamaha kit ignition and barrels as mine, I saw it with my own eyes.
Re: Basic Pros and Cons- RS Vs TZ 250 engines ?
[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1377.msg12498#msg12498 date=1312766946]
Thanks Sam, where do I get a parts list from?
[/quote]
From HRC of course.
http://world.honda.com/HRC/products/partslist/rs250r/2002_RS250R.pdf
TZ250 gearbox is all round much more cheaper than HRC.
You can use either the 4DP-4TW gearbox or the 5KE gearbox which used a wider clutch basket to accomodate 1 extra steel and lining for the extra torque.
http://www.rscycles.com/images/PDF/parts-books/03TZ250.pdf
[/quote]
Thanks again Sam.