You summed it up withyour comment about hot air. With the agreements that are in place between ruling bodies and the policies of those ruling bodies the only way at the moment that karts get onto the asphalt track at Broadford is a midweek private hiring with your own insurance and only 1 vehicle on track at a time.
Works out at around $20,000 by the time you source the insurance.
Speaking of puckering Tony, when will we be bleesed with your presence in the seat at a meeting? Got that thing going yet? It would be great to see one of the fast guys back on the black stuff. Let me know if you need any bits. I know of some virgin Rotax cast cases if that would be of any help you?
On the 4 stroke front, I for one would really like to see a 4 stroke with X amount of gears depending on power curve width with a calibrated racing ECU, weighing an all up weight of 32kg or less and reving to 14000 rpm going around in the 250 Inter class. Amagine the sound. YEEEHHHHSSS PLeeeaaaasEASE. No more jetting, ignition timing issues. Bring it on.
It seems that an turbo 4 stroke is being allowed to race in america.
I think this its great idea, turboing is a cheap and easy way to bring the 4 strokes upto speed with the 2 strokes.
What do us Aussies think of smaller capacity turbo 4 strokes? Currently the rules do not allow for forced induction or 4 strokes, but it could be an interesting way to phase in the 4 strokes....
I agree, the 4 strokers do seem to be costing more - so far. And with a big downgrade in HP. About the only thing you seem to get from one at present is a great sound and a wider powerband :)
Turbo charging can easily add more cost, but it could be a cheaper way of 'bringing-up' the power of a 4 stroke & make them more reliable. If the brand and type of turbo was heavily restricted, or restrictor plates used it wouldn't be so bad....and at the end of the day, if someone has $20k to spend on an engine, they're gonna spend it. Weather its on dyno time tuning timing, or massive development with new parts - they're gonna spend it. Reliability isn't such a problem these days. Technology has come a long way and turbo engines aren't anywhere near as peaky as they we're in the F1 days.
I'm just putting it out there to see what people think, because weather we like it or not in 10-15 years time 2 strokes ain't gonna be around (not that I can see anyway.) I'm not saying anyone is even going to be running 4 strokes anytime soon, but I think it would be good to see the webmastering communities ideas of what may or may not happen engine wise...
There's quiet a few out there..but I think only a handful of high performance ones. Theres a guy with a Aprillia 550 in America - it sounds pretty awesome (theres a video around somewhere). Haven't driven one yet but rode a few bikes and they're pretty nice compared to the 2 stroke....you can just crack the throttle anywhere and away they go.
I think its still a few years before performance & reliability come into play - Maybee when the 250cc MotoGP guys switch over it will all come alive....
[quote author=TonyR link=topic=255.msg3016#msg3016 date=1212804119] I'd dare say your average 3 litre car puts out a hell of a lot more 'pollution' than a 125cc moped. [/quote]
Tony, you would be wrong there, even a two stroke whipper snipper pollutes more than a car these days. I can't be bothered finding the links but they are there, if you reckon the the Californians are tough on two strokes wait until the Europeans start getting fair dinkum and then they will completely die as the market will disappear and no market = no sales. Whether speciality uses would escape the crackdown remains to be seen, it would be a reasonable expectation that they would, though the recent changes with the GP bikes may indicate otherwise.
This may help the disbeliever, not exactly what I was quoting but it will give you some idea of the problem. Yes two strokes can be cleaned up, not to the level of 4 stroke but it can be done, unfortunately most motors are not equipped to do it. The last few paragraphs are the ones that really show how polluting two strokes really are. Here is the quote I did find from here....
http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col330.html
Ah, the sounds of summer. Birds chirping, kids playing... and the unmistakable sounds of two-stroke outboard motors.
For decades two-stroke engines have been the standard motors used not only on boats, but also for snowmobiles, lawnmowers and any other contraptions that need lightweight powerful engines.
Unfortunately two-stroke engines have their drawbacks -- not only are they noisy, they are also major polluters.
According to one Environment Canada estimate, a 70-horsepower two-stroke outboard motor emits the same mass of hydrocarbon pollution in an hour as a new car does after driving 8,000 kilometres.
The problem is that anywhere from 30 to 50 percent of the fuel in a two-stroke engine passes through the combustion chamber unburned. In outboard motors, this unburned fuel is exhausted into the water, along with much of the oil that must be mixed with the fuel.
As there are about three million watercraft in Canada, the use of two-stroke engines contributes to a significant amount of pollution being dumped into the water and spewed into the air.
In two-stroke engines, the intake and exhaust cycles are combined into a single piston stroke, and a mixture of air and fuel blows the exhaust products out of the engine.
Four-stroke engines use four distinct piston strokes to control the fuel and exhaust cycles. As the piston shoves out the exhaust, less unburned fuel is emitted into the water and air.
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has been phasing in emission requirements for outboard engines and personal watercraft since 1998. California, which has the most stringent air quality regulations in North America, is moving even more quickly in this area. By 2006, only four-stroke engines will be able to meet the state emission regulations.
While these regulations affect only the sale of new engines, many jurisdictions have already banned powerful personal watercraft as they produce even more pollution than a standard outboard motor. The California Air Quality Board estimates that a personal watercraft used for seven hours will produce more smog-forming emissions than a 1998 passenger car driven for 100,000 miles.
Environment Canada's Environmental Technology Centre (ETC) has conducted tests on two-stroke outboard engines for a variety of compounds formed through the combustion process. The tests showed that two-stroke outboards produce 12 times as many of certain types of hydrocarbons as four-stroke engines, and five times as much oil and grease.
The ETC also compared exhaust emissions from a light-duty van, a 9.9-hp two-stroke outboard and a 9.9-hp four-stroke outboard. The two-stroke produced 50 percent more carbon monoxide than the four-stroke and nearly 60 times more than the van.
The two-stroke also emitted 15 times more unburned hydrocarbons than the four-stroke and nearly 125 times more than the van.
Canada also has plans for emission regulations in the future, and Environment Canada already has a voluntary agreement with the Canadian Marine Manufacturers Association to sell outboard engines and personal watercraft that comply with U.S. emissions standards.
While two-stroke technology is also advancing, mainly through the use of direct fuel injection, many companies have already recognizing four-strokes as the engines of the future. They cost about 15 to 20 percent more than a comparable two-stroke engine, but boat owners with four-stroke engines will save a significant amount of money on fuel.
And when the time comes to buy a new outboard motor, some boaters might make the decision on noise alone, happily forgoing the familiar roar of the two-stroke engine.
it would be good to see the comparisons with similar output engines. I.E. how much pollution a 90hp 4 stroke makes compared to a 90hp 2 stroke.
I agree, Peak oil is a load of shit. While its good to see people embracing alternative energy, theres no way oil is going away. As an example - In the last decade (atleast) BP, Shell & Mobil have all found ~15% MORE reserves each year than their yearly output. Take into account all the reserves still not found on land, reserves around antarctica + the fact that the world is covered in 2/3 water and we've hardly explored that - theres still plenty left. Not to mention that even if we all stopped using oil in our cars tomorrow - Crude is still needed to make bitumen, plastics, shampoos, degreasers and a million other things.
On the topic of 4 stroke performance - Checkout this 250cc 4 stroke - 40HP from a single cylinder. If they put that tech into a 500cc twin cyl it looks like they're not too far off the mark....
[quote]E85 Aixro rotaries will be available in Feb., MSRP for the XR50 is $5250. Contact RENNTECH KARTING for more information.[/quote]
Doesn't seem all bad....except I can't see a capacity there??? I remember looking at small rotary engines earlier this year, and from what I remember the 250cc was ~50 odd hp.....
And if you want to hear the most beautiful sound on the planet, do some google/youtube on the 4 rotor 787B Le Mans rotary. I've got a doco at home and when this thing comes towards you on the straight its really something else...Its a pity they banned it the first time they ran at Le Mans, probably had something to do with the fact that they blew away the competition :)
I hope that those wacky Germans keep refining and developing the wankel. If they get double the horsepower and drop a gearbox on it we may all end up with them. Very impressive and tidy looking unit to go with it.
From the June 2008 edition of Cycle Torque. [img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/hosting/Strokers%20Gone.jpg[/img] So 250GP will become; Inline 4 cylinder, 4st, >625cc and prototype, NOT PRODUCTION based class. Well that will forever rule out a replacement, hand me down, 4st motor for a go-kart from this catergory.
In case your wondering, a 450MX 4st is no match for a 250 2st. In anycase, there are plenty of purpose built 250 2st webmaster engines available now.
No authority has forced out or phased out 2st GP racing......Dorna has forced that on themselves, it really dates back to pissing off the Japanese giants, so they walked from the class leaving Aprilia and KTM to duke it out.
[quote author=TonyR link=topic=255.msg3152#msg3152 date=1214389916] Hmmm... a 'buzz-box' webmaster. Might have merit yanno. Still, having owned an RX2 with a bridge-ported 12B, they're about as efficient as a large V8 when you hit the loud pedal. So I'm not sure if that's going to impress the tree-huggers that are trying to outlaw the humble 2-stroke. Maybe the modern tech ones are a bit better these days? Personally, I reckon the 250 GP bikes will go 4-stroke, and we'll probably follow suit... [/quote]
Tony,
Yep the new RX-8 rotary (13B) got all the ports totally re-designed and is apparently pretty good. I agree with you last statement.
Tony, I'm reading that your worried that you soon can't use a 2-Stroke. That won't be a problem in your life-time or mine. 2-Stroke, 4-Stroke, Rotary, it's still a combustion engine. The only forseeable thing that could happen is the end of "AVGAS", which will also not be problem.
Gee-Ohh-Gee-Gee-Ohh (goggomobile) "has a whopping great big 2-stroke" :D along with millions of bikes in Asia, there is [u]no plans to ban[/u] them from use and there is also no plans to ban 2-Stroke from recreational or motorsport use.
Honda and Yamaha powered webmasters took their engines from production based motorcycles. When you can't service them, you can use specially made and supported webmaster engines.....no issues Leaded or Unleaded.
The question proberly is; Is there any equivalant and replacement 4-Stroke when comparing to 250 twin in a webmaster.....the answer to that right now is NO.
Honda and Yamaha powered webmasters took their engines from production based motorcycles. When you can't service them, you can use specially made and supported webmaster engines.....no issues Leaded or Unleaded.
The question proberly is; Is there any equivalant and replacement 4-Stroke when comparing to 250 twin in a webmaster.....the answer to that right now is NO.
[/quote]
As 250's are a minority class and the 125 appears to be the majority of gearbox karts being raced in this country are there any bespoke kart 125 motors available?
If you want a "replacement" Honda RS125 there are CNC cased engines and heaps of replacment barrels being cast in Europe to suit. I personally know a person that has made some engines, at 18000 Euro you will get the complete engine with 53RWHP. He has sold a few in 125WGP. If your got the money, you can have as many as you want.
DEA the makers of the new CIK approved webmaster Inline 250 twin engine also make a RS125 copy engine. I think their full house RS125 engine is around 24,000 Euro.
At those prices I wll pass. realistically those prices would kill the class here and everywhere else. The beauty of the 125 class has been the pricepoint v's the bang for the dollar spent as we all know. This is all fairly academic at the moment until the supply of 125's and 250's dry up, which when production stops (has stopped?). Unfortunately the life cycle of a motor bike isn't great so they will disappear fairly rapidly after that, crushed or just abandoned. California has been the most vocal so far on two strokes, other governments are yet to follow suit, but they will.
In the 125GP scene, bikes and engines are still plentyfull, infact bikes are still made. When this dries up in many years time, a 250cc single cylinder production 4 Stroke will fit quite nicely into a 125GB webmaster. By then the power and reliability will be suitable and the torque will be nice!
Guys the 2 stroke motor is a long way from being finished. If you Google Evinrude E-Tec outboard motors and prepare to be amazed. Basicly the run a oli/fuel mix of 300:1. You read it right. More power and economical than all 4 strokes. Designed by Rotax / Bombadier. The Orbital engine company have been developing this for some time and its all good. Sorry guys but we wont be out of engines for a while.
I for one would like to see the 250 inter rules allow not only (APPROVED) HINT HINT!!! 2 stroke engines but also 4 stroke engines up to say 500CC.
No manufacturer in there right mind is going to invest in an engine that can't be used in a class.
I'm picking that it will be a enthusiest that will crack the target of 33kg all up, 6 speed, 90HP, 50+ foot pounds of torque available over a 5000RPM width running on 91 unleaded pump fuel all for under 15000 AU with 20+ hrs between rebuilds.
I know of such an example that is in it's infancy somewhere in the world, lets hope the rules allow it some day.
Yep, I think it would be good to see them allowed. You would think the transition will have to start sometime soon. I'd put my money on us changing when the CIK-FIA does :)
Why wait for the cik-fia? We already allow non CIK homolagated 2 stroke engines to be used in Australia as does New Zealand and the US. Why not let the cat out amonst the pidgeons sooner rather than later?
I'm sure it would still be quite some time before anything was used on track and alot longer before reliability was under control to make it a comparable cost effective ulternative to a Honda V, Yamaha V, inline or parallel twin 2 stroke but for anyone to start anything, it must first be allowed in the rules.
If deciding on a 4 stroke cc equivelent to the 250 inter is a problem then the x2 ratio usally works to start with. If it becomes a runaway one day then lower the allowable cc's to 450 and so on.
I think I remember talk of such a rule proposal a few years ago, does anyone else remember this?
[quote author=Mike Wayne link=topic=255.msg3499#msg3499 date=1234937865] SAFE:
Yep, I think it would be good to see them allowed. You would think the transition will have to start sometime soon. I'd put my money on us changing when the CIK-FIA does :) [/quote][quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=255.msg3559#msg3559 date=1236609280]
Why wait for the cik-fia? We already allow non CIK homolagated 2 stroke engines to be used in Australia as does New Zealand and the US.[/quote]
Scott, I sensed a bit of 'Tongue in Cheek' there by Mike as our current rule makers can't base anything for themselves without having to refer to the wording and ideas of the CIK rule book. They couldn't even word up a rear crash bar properly and now propose the use of only CIK approved tyres......why anyone can just pay the CIK to have their tyres approved, doesn't make them better/worst/safer. Effectivitly takes out the use of a Hoosier tyre who are prepared to develop tyres to our needs on our feedback...possibly provide sponsorship to our events.... SWG should be looking to attracting a fee for themselves instead, just like CIK does......opps SWG are not allowed to take money...... I think I even saw something like a CIK approved rain light as well coming our way......where do I get one from locally and why?
Anyway, a 4st 450cc experiment class is being pushed through [u]because[/u] it will add 1 person at NSW events who had already built one regardless of rules.
[quote]Anyway, a 4st 450cc experiment class is being pushed through because it will add 1 person at NSW events who had already built one regardless of rules.[/quote]
Reading what is up on the SWG site I would have thought that they were going to push for a full on class. They have no mention of experimental or trial in what little they have mentioned.
As for the CIK thing with tyres. The CIK take resposibility for having checked a load and speed rating with any tyre they allow. Have checked the Hoosier site and they have no mention in their specs etc of load and speed rating on either their 5 or 6 inch tyres. Not hard as according to the proposed changes the SWG put up any tyre could gain approval if it had a suitable load and speed rating. The tail light Sammy according to what the SWG had worded in their document was "a unit approved by the FIA or CIK". Give either Williams, ferrari or Renault a call and they would send one over for you if the rule gets a run.
And attracting a fee. Hang on!!!! That was proposed a couple of years ago with a control tyre for the Max class and got boo hooed by my northern neighbours. Both of them!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=The Cook link=topic=255.msg3573#msg3573 date=1236661900] As for the CIK thing with tyres. The CIK take resposibility for having checked a load and speed rating with any tyre they allow. [/quote]
I don't think so...its only about [u]manfactuerer claimed[/u] tyre characteristics, not about load or speed specs. CIK approval about controlling tyres so everyone has the same choice and regular supply. Also the CIK get their $$$ share for each tyre made with their marking. This is why non CIK marked tyres can be purchased at a lower cost. This type of control only promotes cheating or "rumour mill" cheating. With open book racing, no accusations can be had and easier to get on with life at the track.
As for Hoosier, look around at the next race meeting in other car catergories. Tell me if Drag Cars, Sprint Cars, Circuit Racing cars have their tyres with speed rating....
Let me go and take a s**t.... while I'm at it, I need to check my jocks have skid marks that are CIK rated and approved.
[quote author=Jason Laker link=topic=255.msg3580#msg3580 date=1236667961] Didn't we just get rid of one class from the rule book because Cams wanted us to have fewer classes? Why the back flip? [/quote] Yepp, someone else is also awake to that back flip.... :D
2 classes out (3 or 4 in NSW running in one of them) and 1 class in (1 maybe runner in NSW). Really good RATIONALE in that one but this is our beloved rule makers in full flight!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From what I've heard the introduction of a 4 stroke is not to make a new class, but to be within the 250 Nat class. So ultimately it's just testing at this point, but needs to be recognised to test. The fella doing it, it's all coming out of his pocket. Sounds very nice listening to it.
I'm told the introduction of a 4 stroke has been talked about for some years now.
[quote]propose the use of only CIK approved tyres......why anyone can just pay the CIK to have their tyres approved, doesn't make them better/worst/safer. Effectivitly takes out the use of a Hoosier tyre who are prepared to develop tyres to our needs on our feedback...possibly provide sponsorship to our events[/quote]
I can tell you first hand that the only physical safety testing done by the CIK is the collision deformation and deacceleration tests on sprint kart bodywork, front and rear bumbers and sidepod bars for use in CIK classes at CIK events. You can make your own 250 webmaster chassis, win the european or world championship with it and yet no one can buy one unless you want to give them one yet if you want to make an engine of your own and do the same you must make 10 complete assembled units plus 1 in peices for a couple of CIK inspectors to measure a few things, pay a heifty fee plus all inspectors costs including first class travel. After this you can change any of the port heights and widths without the cik's permission so what is the point? In the CIK regs, Homolagated sprint kart chassis only have to have the same tubing OD on all rails and the amount of bends within the structure but can be moved around the chassis anywhere once homolagated so really, what is the point in all of this? Very inconsistant rule sets and reasoning.
I sense that I just jumped in the middle of a shit fight here that I wasn't aware exsisted. I'm talking about a 4st engine that runs in the international class in a 250 international chassis.
By experimental class do you mean something that isn't a webmaster experimental yet will run under the webmasters banner?
The way I percieve experimental for us is, and correct me if I'm wrong. There is no provisions in the rules for it and it is unknown exactly how it will perform as compared to another class. It is allowed to compete but is not cecognised as a class. While competing data is gathered and rules are made that make it comparable to a class or classes already in the rule book.
Comments32
Re: 4 stroke engines
Re: 4 stroke engines
Works out at around $20,000 by the time you source the insurance.
Re: 4 stroke engines
It would be great to see one of the fast guys back on the black stuff. Let me know if you need any bits. I know of some virgin Rotax cast cases if that would be of any help you?
On the 4 stroke front, I for one would really like to see a 4 stroke with X amount of gears depending on power curve width with a calibrated racing ECU, weighing an all up weight of 32kg or less and reving to 14000 rpm going around in the 250 Inter class. Amagine the sound. YEEEHHHHSSS PLeeeaaaasEASE. No more jetting, ignition timing issues. Bring it on.
Regards Scott
Re: 4 stroke engines
I think this its great idea, turboing is a cheap and easy way to bring the 4 strokes upto speed with the 2 strokes.
What do us Aussies think of smaller capacity turbo 4 strokes? Currently the rules do not allow for forced induction or 4 strokes, but it could be an interesting way to phase in the 4 strokes....
Re: 4 stroke engines
Turbo charging can easily add more cost, but it could be a cheaper way of 'bringing-up' the power of a 4 stroke & make them more reliable. If the brand and type of turbo was heavily restricted, or restrictor plates used it wouldn't be so bad....and at the end of the day, if someone has $20k to spend on an engine, they're gonna spend it. Weather its on dyno time tuning timing, or massive development with new parts - they're gonna spend it. Reliability isn't such a problem these days. Technology has come a long way and turbo engines aren't anywhere near as peaky as they we're in the F1 days.
I'm just putting it out there to see what people think, because weather we like it or not in 10-15 years time 2 strokes ain't gonna be around (not that I can see anyway.) I'm not saying anyone is even going to be running 4 strokes anytime soon, but I think it would be good to see the webmastering communities ideas of what may or may not happen engine wise...
Re: 4 stroke engines
I think its still a few years before performance & reliability come into play - Maybee when the 250cc MotoGP guys switch over it will all come alive....
Re: 4 stroke engines
I'd dare say your average 3 litre car puts out a hell of a lot more 'pollution' than a 125cc moped. [/quote]
Tony, you would be wrong there, even a two stroke whipper snipper pollutes more than a car these days. I can't be bothered finding the links but they are there, if you reckon the the Californians are tough on two strokes wait until the Europeans start getting fair dinkum and then they will completely die as the market will disappear and no market = no sales. Whether speciality uses would escape the crackdown remains to be seen, it would be a reasonable expectation that they would, though the recent changes with the GP bikes may indicate otherwise.
Re: 4 stroke engines
http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col330.html
Ah, the sounds of summer. Birds chirping, kids playing... and the unmistakable sounds of two-stroke outboard motors.
For decades two-stroke engines have been the standard motors used not only on boats, but also for snowmobiles, lawnmowers and any other contraptions that need lightweight powerful engines.
Unfortunately two-stroke engines have their drawbacks -- not only are they noisy, they are also major polluters.
According to one Environment Canada estimate, a 70-horsepower two-stroke outboard motor emits the same mass of hydrocarbon pollution in an hour as a new car does after driving 8,000 kilometres.
The problem is that anywhere from 30 to 50 percent of the fuel in a two-stroke engine passes through the combustion chamber unburned. In outboard motors, this unburned fuel is exhausted into the water, along with much of the oil that must be mixed with the fuel.
As there are about three million watercraft in Canada, the use of two-stroke engines contributes to a significant amount of pollution being dumped into the water and spewed into the air.
In two-stroke engines, the intake and exhaust cycles are combined into a single piston stroke, and a mixture of air and fuel blows the exhaust products out of the engine.
Four-stroke engines use four distinct piston strokes to control the fuel and exhaust cycles. As the piston shoves out the exhaust, less unburned fuel is emitted into the water and air.
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has been phasing in emission requirements for outboard engines and personal watercraft since 1998. California, which has the most stringent air quality regulations in North America, is moving even more quickly in this area. By 2006, only four-stroke engines will be able to meet the state emission regulations.
While these regulations affect only the sale of new engines, many jurisdictions have already banned powerful personal watercraft as they produce even more pollution than a standard outboard motor. The California Air Quality Board estimates that a personal watercraft used for seven hours will produce more smog-forming emissions than a 1998 passenger car driven for 100,000 miles.
Environment Canada's Environmental Technology Centre (ETC) has conducted tests on two-stroke outboard engines for a variety of compounds formed through the combustion process. The tests showed that two-stroke outboards produce 12 times as many of certain types of hydrocarbons as four-stroke engines, and five times as much oil and grease.
The ETC also compared exhaust emissions from a light-duty van, a 9.9-hp two-stroke outboard and a 9.9-hp four-stroke outboard. The two-stroke produced 50 percent more carbon monoxide than the four-stroke and nearly 60 times more than the van.
The two-stroke also emitted 15 times more unburned hydrocarbons than the four-stroke and nearly 125 times more than the van.
Canada also has plans for emission regulations in the future, and Environment Canada already has a voluntary agreement with the Canadian Marine Manufacturers Association to sell outboard engines and personal watercraft that comply with U.S. emissions standards.
While two-stroke technology is also advancing, mainly through the use of direct fuel injection, many companies have already recognizing four-strokes as the engines of the future. They cost about 15 to 20 percent more than a comparable two-stroke engine, but boat owners with four-stroke engines will save a significant amount of money on fuel.
And when the time comes to buy a new outboard motor, some boaters might make the decision on noise alone, happily forgoing the familiar roar of the two-stroke engine.
Re: 4 stroke engines
I agree, Peak oil is a load of shit. While its good to see people embracing alternative energy, theres no way oil is going away. As an example - In the last decade (atleast) BP, Shell & Mobil have all found ~15% MORE reserves each year than their yearly output. Take into account all the reserves still not found on land, reserves around antarctica + the fact that the world is covered in 2/3 water and we've hardly explored that - theres still plenty left. Not to mention that even if we all stopped using oil in our cars tomorrow - Crude is still needed to make bitumen, plastics, shampoos, degreasers and a million other things.
On the topic of 4 stroke performance - Checkout this 250cc 4 stroke - 40HP from a single cylinder. If they put that tech into a 500cc twin cyl it looks like they're not too far off the mark....
[img]http://www.technique-engineering.it/img_kart/tech-f1.jpg[/img]
http://www.technique-engineering.it/racing_division_en/tech-f1_engine.htm
Re: 4 stroke engines
Re: 4 stroke engines
Doesn't seem all bad....except I can't see a capacity there??? I remember looking at small rotary engines earlier this year, and from what I remember the 250cc was ~50 odd hp.....
Re: 4 stroke engines
Re: 4 stroke engines
Re: 4 stroke engines
[img]http://www.samzavaglia.com/hosting/Strokers%20Gone.jpg[/img]
So 250GP will become; Inline 4 cylinder, 4st, >625cc and prototype, NOT PRODUCTION based class.
Well that will forever rule out a replacement, hand me down, 4st motor for a go-kart from this catergory.
In case your wondering, a 450MX 4st is no match for a 250 2st.
In anycase, there are plenty of purpose built 250 2st webmaster engines available now.
No authority has forced out or phased out 2st GP racing......Dorna has forced that on themselves, it really dates back to pissing off the Japanese giants, so they walked from the class leaving Aprilia and KTM to duke it out.
Re: 4 stroke engines
Hmmm... a 'buzz-box' webmaster. Might have merit yanno. Still, having owned an RX2 with a bridge-ported 12B, they're about as efficient as a large V8 when you hit the loud pedal. So I'm not sure if that's going to impress the tree-huggers that are trying to outlaw the humble 2-stroke. Maybe the modern tech ones are a bit better these days? Personally, I reckon the 250 GP bikes will go 4-stroke, and we'll probably follow suit...
[/quote]
Tony,
Yep the new RX-8 rotary (13B) got all the ports totally re-designed and is apparently pretty good. I agree with you last statement.
Re: 4 stroke engines
I'm reading that your worried that you soon can't use a 2-Stroke. That won't be a problem in your life-time or mine.
2-Stroke, 4-Stroke, Rotary, it's still a combustion engine. The only forseeable thing that could happen is the end of "AVGAS", which will also not be problem.
Gee-Ohh-Gee-Gee-Ohh (goggomobile) "has a whopping great big 2-stroke" :D along with millions of bikes in Asia, there is [u]no plans to ban[/u] them from use and there is also no plans to ban 2-Stroke from recreational or motorsport use.
Honda and Yamaha powered webmasters took their engines from production based motorcycles. When you can't service them, you can use specially made and supported webmaster engines.....no issues Leaded or Unleaded.
The question proberly is; Is there any equivalant and replacement 4-Stroke when comparing to 250 twin in a webmaster.....the answer to that right now is NO.
Re: 4 stroke engines
Honda and Yamaha powered webmasters took their engines from production based motorcycles. When you can't service them, you can use specially made and supported webmaster engines.....no issues Leaded or Unleaded.
The question proberly is; Is there any equivalant and replacement 4-Stroke when comparing to 250 twin in a webmaster.....the answer to that right now is NO.
[/quote]
As 250's are a minority class and the 125 appears to be the majority of gearbox karts being raced in this country are there any bespoke kart 125 motors available?
Re: 4 stroke engines
I personally know a person that has made some engines, at 18000 Euro you will get the complete engine with 53RWHP. He has sold a few in 125WGP. If your got the money, you can have as many as you want.
DEA the makers of the new CIK approved webmaster Inline 250 twin engine also make a RS125 copy engine. I think their full house RS125 engine is around 24,000 Euro.
Re: 4 stroke engines
Re: 4 stroke engines
When this dries up in many years time, a 250cc single cylinder production 4 Stroke will fit quite nicely into a 125GB webmaster. By then the power and reliability will be suitable and the torque will be nice!
Re: 4 stroke engines
Basicly the run a oli/fuel mix of 300:1. You read it right. More power and economical than all 4 strokes. Designed by Rotax / Bombadier. The Orbital engine company have been developing this for some time and its all good. Sorry guys but we wont be out of engines for a while.
Re: 4 stroke engines
I for one would like to see the 250 inter rules allow not only (APPROVED) HINT HINT!!! 2 stroke engines but also 4 stroke engines up to say 500CC.
No manufacturer in there right mind is going to invest in an engine that can't be used in a class.
I'm picking that it will be a enthusiest that will crack the target of 33kg all up, 6 speed, 90HP, 50+ foot pounds of torque available over a 5000RPM width running on 91 unleaded pump fuel all for under 15000 AU with 20+ hrs between rebuilds.
I know of such an example that is in it's infancy somewhere in the world, lets hope the rules allow it some day.
Would anyone else like to see this happen?
Re: 4 stroke engines
Yep, I think it would be good to see them allowed. You would think the transition will have to start sometime soon. I'd put my money on us changing when the CIK-FIA does :)
Re: 4 stroke engines
Why wait for the cik-fia? We already allow non CIK homolagated 2 stroke engines to be used in Australia as does New Zealand and the US.
Why not let the cat out amonst the pidgeons sooner rather than later?
I'm sure it would still be quite some time before anything was used on track and alot longer before reliability was under control to make it a comparable cost effective ulternative to a Honda V, Yamaha V, inline or parallel twin 2 stroke but for anyone to start anything, it must first be allowed in the rules.
If deciding on a 4 stroke cc equivelent to the 250 inter is a problem then the x2 ratio usally works to start with. If it becomes a runaway one day then lower the allowable cc's to 450 and so on.
I think I remember talk of such a rule proposal a few years ago, does anyone else remember this?
SAFE
Re: 4 stroke engines
SAFE:
Yep, I think it would be good to see them allowed. You would think the transition will have to start sometime soon. I'd put my money on us changing when the CIK-FIA does :)
[/quote][quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=255.msg3559#msg3559 date=1236609280]
Why wait for the cik-fia? We already allow non CIK homolagated 2 stroke engines to be used in Australia as does New Zealand and the US.[/quote]
Scott,
I sensed a bit of 'Tongue in Cheek' there by Mike as our current rule makers can't base anything for themselves without having to refer to the wording and ideas of the CIK rule book. They couldn't even word up a rear crash bar properly and now propose the use of only CIK approved tyres......why anyone can just pay the CIK to have their tyres approved, doesn't make them better/worst/safer. Effectivitly takes out the use of a Hoosier tyre who are prepared to develop tyres to our needs on our feedback...possibly provide sponsorship to our events.... SWG should be looking to attracting a fee for themselves instead, just like CIK does......opps SWG are not allowed to take money......
I think I even saw something like a CIK approved rain light as well coming our way......where do I get one from locally and why?
Anyway, a 4st 450cc experiment class is being pushed through [u]because[/u] it will add 1 person at NSW events who had already built one regardless of rules.
Re: 4 stroke engines
Reading what is up on the SWG site I would have thought that they were going to push for a full on class. They have no mention of experimental or trial in what little they have mentioned.
As for the CIK thing with tyres. The CIK take resposibility for having checked a load and speed rating with any tyre they allow. Have checked the Hoosier site and they have no mention in their specs etc of load and speed rating on either their 5 or 6 inch tyres. Not hard as according to the proposed changes the SWG put up any tyre could gain approval if it had a suitable load and speed rating. The tail light Sammy according to what the SWG had worded in their document was "a unit approved by the FIA or CIK". Give either Williams, ferrari or Renault a call and they would send one over for you if the rule gets a run.
And attracting a fee. Hang on!!!! That was proposed a couple of years ago with a control tyre for the Max class and got boo hooed by my northern neighbours. Both of them!!!!!!!!!
Re: 4 stroke engines
As for the CIK thing with tyres. The CIK take resposibility for having checked a load and speed rating with any tyre they allow. [/quote]
I don't think so...its only about [u]manfactuerer claimed[/u] tyre characteristics, not about load or speed specs. CIK approval about controlling tyres so everyone has the same choice and regular supply. Also the CIK get their $$$ share for each tyre made with their marking. This is why non CIK marked tyres can be purchased at a lower cost.
This type of control only promotes cheating or "rumour mill" cheating.
With open book racing, no accusations can be had and easier to get on with life at the track.
As for Hoosier, look around at the next race meeting in other car catergories. Tell me if Drag Cars, Sprint Cars, Circuit Racing cars have their tyres with speed rating....
Let me go and take a s**t.... while I'm at it, I need to check my jocks have skid marks that are CIK rated and approved.
Re: 4 stroke engines
Didn't we just get rid of one class from the rule book because Cams wanted us to have fewer classes? Why the back flip?
[/quote]
Yepp, someone else is also awake to that back flip.... :D
Re: 4 stroke engines
Re: 4 stroke engines
I'm told the introduction of a 4 stroke has been talked about for some years now.
Re: 4 stroke engines
I can tell you first hand that the only physical safety testing done by the CIK is the collision deformation and deacceleration tests on sprint kart bodywork, front and rear bumbers and sidepod bars for use in CIK classes at CIK events.
You can make your own 250 webmaster chassis, win the european or world championship with it and yet no one can buy one unless you want to give them one yet if you want to make an engine of your own and do the same you must make 10 complete assembled units plus 1 in peices for a couple of CIK inspectors to measure a few things, pay a heifty fee plus all inspectors costs including first class travel. After this you can change any of the port heights and widths without the cik's permission so what is the point?
In the CIK regs, Homolagated sprint kart chassis only have to have the same tubing OD on all rails and the amount of bends within the structure but can be moved around the chassis anywhere once homolagated so really, what is the point in all of this? Very inconsistant rule sets and reasoning.
I sense that I just jumped in the middle of a shit fight here that I wasn't aware exsisted.
I'm talking about a 4st engine that runs in the international class in a 250 international chassis.
By experimental class do you mean something that isn't a webmaster experimental yet will run under the webmasters banner?
Re: 4 stroke engines