125 gearbox numbers

Submitted by safe on Mon, 17/01/2011 - 10:18
Anyone got weight [u]averages[/u] and class numbers for each state in 125 Superkart? (Not Stock Honda or ICC please)

Cheers
Scott
  • Up
    0%
  • Down
    0%

Comments

Scott,
I know there was some numbers recorded at Morgan Pk, but lets face it, no kart is going to weigh under unless they want DQ, so the real numbers need to come from "kart without lead" and "driver weight" separately, so the averages are somewhat misleading. Separate weighing without driver was not done.

Give Stocky a call, he can tell you what his 125 complete package, 250Nat complete package, and 250Int complete package weighs without a goose in the seat.

He can also tell you how much lighter and how much heavier he can make them without the use of any carbon composites.

Thanks for the info Sam.

I was also wondering what size feilds each state has. I'm looking into making a new engine package for 125 and just really need to know wether or not to bother really. 125's in Vic seem to be around 5 or 6 at club days (I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong.)

I'm aiming for a target price of around $12,000au for a Dyno tunned (with dyno sheet), ready to race, all new component billet cased 125 engine using all of the latest European 250 Billet tandem twin engine componentry as per our 2010 SAFE engine.

The package would include the following-
Engine
ignition
pipe and muffler
D ported and polished carb
air filter
fuel pump
fuel lines
jets
radiator
Front Drive sprocket set

I have seen what some people do to good gear by mixing and matching and that is why only the whole package would be sold first to customers and obviously spares too, not that you would need many.

(I would make mounts for all of the different karts as required for a special additional price)

Just add fuel and water and fly.


May no mistake, these will be reliable and very fast, all of the development work will be done and $12000 may seem like a huge amount of money but if you look at a set of RS Honda 125 billet cases only they are about 16000 Euros I'm told.

If numbers are crap and no one would be inerested then please speak up now on here or even PM me either way. I appreciate honesty and will hold no grudges no mater how negitive it may be for me.

Of coarse if people want to give me deposits on orders, then feel free!!
Regards,
Scott

Thanks to all that took the time to reply.

As I said, I would rather find out the general opinion now, eventhough it is usually the same people that are vocal on the forum and many don't go near it at all.
Unfortunately I knew the answer really. As you say Ian, most people will persevere with their own parts etc.

The effort would be very minimal for me really and I do enjoy a challenge. Just a few 100 hours of CAD modeling and CNC programming assemble with or 250 twin knowledge and soon after would emerge a fantastic little 125 engine capable of beating all but perhaps one or two RS125 Hondas in the country in its first session on track.

I will stick to my other plans now thanks for your time.

Regards
Scott

Scott,
I enjoy the depth of the sport that you and a few others reach, it makes very interesting reading, thank you.
I have a good mechanical knowledge but very little kart experience, when looking for a national recently and searching globally for many months I spoke to alot of people who were big on gas gas and seems the engine is pretty prominent in race podiums worldwide, with it now being restricted to its own class.
Would it be worth your while and the simplicity of design, perhaps even lowering entry price to produce an affordable Aussie 250 single variant?

On another thought, two stroke fuel injection, if you got this right and had a small throttlebody to adapt to any motor, wouldn't you make a killing by getting rid of the number one main engine killer and introducing infinite on track tunability? there are enough Australian aftermarket places that do it for cars, microtech, haltech, wolf etc.
It seems JSR in the states are already doing it for banshees?
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/09/two-stroke-fuel-injection-is-here-now/
I'm not about killing classes, but I think this would extend the life on all our engines and it seems that the effort you are going to,you want it to be profitable and to do this standardisation so that everyone can use it is the key.

excuse any ignorance here mate, just an outside opinion from someone just coming into the sport.

feno

Thanks for the reply Feno,
First of all, I would like to point out that no one who has a business related solely to webmastering knows what profit is and anyone who says otherwise is either a liar or they are full of shite!! If there is someone out there that actually does then please come and be my business mentor .

The only one who does seems to be making money is a certain round black rubber seller but he makes his money at sprint karting sales anyway and he doesn't race a promotional kart to suck all of his money away either.

Secondly making a "super" 250 national engine from scratch using some components from other engines and testing etc would cost an astronomical amount here in Australia and the end result would be a national engine that cannot contest the Australian Championship as there is no class for it. CAMS are not going to allow another class without dropping one in my view and add to that that only a few units would be sold regardless and you have the recipe to a financial disaster let alone only really hoping to break even.

Also look at what has been up the front in the 250 National field in the last 12/13 months. Marty is the only one who has gone to a Viper CR250 despite somewhat leaving the rest behind in the class and hes a heavy bugger. Brickies are not built like ballet dancers!! These are bolt on engine kits with fantastic backup, spares availability, technical advice and support from Ian Harrison etc and yet no one is prepared to spend the money and they aren’t even that expensive in my view. Engines are exempt of duty and only $500 for freight on the whole kit!!
A "super" billet 250 single would cost al least 50% more than a Viper CR250. Is that what people would like?

What we will continue to see is people persisting with other things that are cheaper but way behind in both power and pace. The exception is obviously Brian Stockman’s Honda CR 250 project but I’m not sure of the intended cost will be but I presume similar to Vipers anyway.

Fuel injection is illegal to my knowledge and 3d mapping ignition advance vs fuel ratio scenarios cost loads of cash. The main "engine killer" as you put it is the dude with the self confidence and the screwdriver in his hand not the carburettor!!
On track tunability is not what you want either. We consistantly see people driving slowly on the racing line totally oblivious to the fact that faster karts are coming through sometimes at over 100 Kms faster. Adjusting something while driving is dangerous even for good drivers. On the "fly" on the dyno is ok though.

What you see in Australian webmaster racing is State favourtisuim. By this I mean Stockman and Honda 250's and Pellies 125's are mostly seen in NSW. BRC/ZIP karts are mostly seen in SA. Andersons are mostly seen in VIC. SAFE engines are mostly seen in VIC or though SAFE's are almost as popular in NZ now. Not sure about Qld but I think there are a quite a few PVP chassis and engines there. This is mostly due to support and advise from the business or individuals behind one or more of the products.

On a final note, what I would really like to do is being allowed to run a 4 stroke engine in the 250 International class. Perhaps limited to 5 gears and 550 cc’s. I see no reason why this is not allowed here in Australia and I am positive that I could build a carburettor induction 4 stroke engine cheaper than a front running 250 twin with more torque same weight (as a package) and impeccable reliability. Perhaps I should look into talking it over with the swg reps even though some are our competition!

Cheers
Scott

thanks Scott,

All extremely legimate answers, again excuse my ignorance on the rulings but injection illegal? Isnt there 450 cc 4 stroke (injected) about to be approved to run alongside the 250 nationals, I was talking to the fellow on it last December, it looked like a bulletproof setup, he stated "lacked the pace of the smokers as it was just stock".
With the injection question I was assuming there'd be an adjustable mapping and setup already in existence that you could stand on the shoulders of giants I guess and remap to suit. (again my knowledge on this is limited to seeing remapping being done in a matter of hours on wolf, haltech and microtech setups on ported rotaries, I'm assuming they have similar powerband charateristics).
By "on track tuning" I meant "at track" with the amount of gps and engine managment systems some of the guys are running, to link this to the injection setup would be a winner? but fully agree with you on your opinions of in race testing! >:(
wouldn't the fuel ratios remain constant with the spray volume variable, making mapping similar to four stroke with increasing in volume when 'on pipe'? surely if a needle and jet can do this well the mapping would be all over it?
It's I guess an interesting question for me as I have not had any exposure to injected two strokes and when trying to find information on it, it seems to be a bit of a blank void!

With the 250 national engine I realise the shortcomings in Australia, but was thinking more along line in the international market. I guess the power output would determine the class, so you are right, if it was any good it would ascertain the same tag as the GG did.

As mentioned I am a newbie to the sport and and most certainly do not have the cnc ability or engine building, race experience of yourself, this is just simply open ended ideas I was suggesting, appreciate your answers, they all validate what I have seen so far.
feno

refinisher

Sun, 06/02/2011 - 16:21



Also look at what has been up the front in the 250 National field in the last 12/13 months. Marty is the only one who has gone to a Viper CR250 despite somewhat leaving the rest behind in the class and hes a heavy bugger. Brickies are not built like ballet dancers!! These are bolt on engine kits with fantastic backup, spares availability, technical advice and support from Ian Harrison etc and yet no one is prepared to spend the money and they aren’t even that expensive in my view. Engines are exempt of duty and only $500 for freight on the whole kit!!
A "super" billet 250 single would cost al least 50% more than a Viper CR250. Is that what people would like?

Cheers
Scott

[/quote]
Scotty my motor is a viper package and alright I may not be as quick as that skinny little brick layer but power for weight I can probably claim that is my problem. What do they say 10kgs is a second I might buy Marty dinner on friday night a 10kg steak ;D ;D that might help

There's a few guys running 4stroke's in the US, from what I've heard they are having alot of issue's with oil starvation in high G corners and engine failures.

BRC seemed to have a nice Aprilia 550 donk in the pipeline..

I love 2strokes but I also like the idea of 4strokes in webmasters as there is plenty of aftermarket performance products available now and they produce good solid torque with a nice smooth power curve..

If the reliability can be overcome there a great idea ....


[quote author=ABR link=topic=1195.msg10575#msg10575 date=1296973473]
There's a few guys running 4stroke's in the US, from what I've heard they are having alot of issue's with oil starvation in high G corners and engine failures.
[/quote]
With FACTORY R&D SUPPORT from Cannondale and also support from Honda in webmasters, yet the 4T could not hold together once it had mods to try to stay with a Rotax 257. A blow up in 4T meant throw away the motor as the rebuild cost out weigh the new cost.

As for Fuel Injection in 2T, why doesn't Aprilia, KTM, Honda have it in there MotoGP125 bikes? Their carbs cost just as much as computers, throttle bodies and injectors put togther. Mick Doohan trialed Fuel Injection with works HRC 500GP. They could not get the feel and fuel control in 2T like they do with 4T.

[quote author=Matt 48nat link=topic=1195.msg10574#msg10574 date=1296973314]
Scotty my motor is a viper package and alright I may not be as quick as that skinny little brick layer but power for weight I can probably claim that is my problem. What do they say 10kgs is a second I might buy Marty dinner on friday night a 10kg steak ;D ;D that might help
[/quote]
Hmmm, sounds like the occupation has something to do with winning, even with the same package.
I wonder how a skinny little school kid goes vs a skinny little bricklayer....pen pusher vs rough hands.

Mind you, I've given away 10kgs to my competitors in the past and won....wasn't a steak, just fat around the bone. :D

Viper Racing UK

Mon, 07/02/2011 - 09:59

My money's on the rough-handed brickie. ;)

Good luck to all the drivers at PI in just under a weeks time.

Even Tracey's driving a [i]VIPER[/i]. Good on ya girl :D :D :D :D

Best Regards

Ian

Hi Guys, obviously my comments/opinions have hit some raw nerves so I just want to add a few comments.

Feno,
I don't know anything about a 4 stroke in NSW being approved for use in the National class but what I will say is that it will be slower than a 2 stroke in stock form and will need a lot of work to get it to perform equally with a front running 2 stroke and then it will loose it's "bullet proof ness". Any 4 stroke for kart use must be custom made in my view. Also 4 strokes are normally grenades when something goes wrong but that is usually due to a valve train problem, remove the valve train, replace it with something else ;) and you have an almost bullet proof engine that’s even lighter and could spin to 20,000RPM plus all day long.

With your fuel injection ideas, I appreciate your suggestion but I just don't think that is something that will sell.
You also sound like you know an awful amount more about it than I do so perhaps you should think about developing, marketing, selling, providing world wide minus Europe/Uk support for it etc? It is way beyond my skill set and my comments come from my view that hardly anyone will buy it.

Also please don't think of me as someone who is just shutting you down, I welcome you to the sport and equally, your suggestions/opinions.

Matt,
you have confirmed my point. Imagine if it was a Viper engine development instead of "looked over/ maintained" and a more modern CR to boot!! Perhaps you would have to have the steak instead to "skinny Martin" :o ;D ;)!!

ABR
Again a racing 4 stroke for karting is what is needed for the 4 stroke route. All of the current alternatives are simply no good for kart use except for a few of the 125cc tag class 250 cc alternatives from Europe.
The aprilia never got off the ground, not enough power and head design needed changing. To my knowledge, BRC scrapped it. I'm sure someone will tell us other wise if that isn't correct.

Menno,
I think you missed my point. I don't want to start an argument about your kart /engine etc.
My comment/opinion is based on how much time and money was spent developing your engine when Marty had it and how much time and money was spent developing another certain yamaha and the end result was not as much power or as fat a curve as the turn key Viper CR. This is a fact.

On the maintenance side, Marty does that. Before he bought the honda he had never even taken a head off before, now he can put a piston kit in it in 20 mins after doing it twice. Maintaining/rebuilding an engine is really not that hard, I would say that with a some guidance and some measuring equipment, most competitors could rebuild there engines perhaps minus crank press work.
There are some really good 2 stroke books out there which is how I learnt to do it. It is developing an engine's power curve progression that an engine builder is really needed for as long as that is what they do.
I started sprint racing back in 95. I took my kt 100 back to the shop for a top end rebuild and waited for it to be done. I think it took about 7 minutes and it was honed as well.
After 1 top end rebuild and working out what the parts cost, I bought a torque wrench, a micrometer set, dial gauge, "t" gauges and a syringe to "cc" and did it my self from then on.


Ian,
Do you ever sleep!! ;D


Anyway this has all got a bit off topic, I would however like to know if anyone would pay $14000 tops for a super 250 national turn key engine package?

no offence taken here mate, I've the skin of an elephant, no problems merely a suggestion based on the absence of it from the sport, I was just interested in what you'd uncovered with it.
As Sam says why haven't they introduced injection to GP, the difference must be too marginal. In regards to my own investigation into it, cash wise I think I'll just wait till the price of bannnas comes down!

can you reccomend any good 2 stroke building books , that given relevant focus on the porting and backpressure analysis etc?


On another note everyone,
looks like I wont be able to compete in the nationals in march due to my greenness, so Im available for odd duties on the weekend...... pushing, holes sewn up, hotdogs cooked???


cheers
feno

[quote author=feno link=topic=1195.msg10582#msg10582 date=1297042556]
can you reccomend any good 2 stroke building books , that given relevant focus on the porting and backpressure analysis etc?
[/quote]
2 stroke books to help you in webmasters.....I can recommend......NONE....unless you want to waste time and money.
No therory, only practical works. Try going down the route of experience.
eg. how many dyno runs and track testing has Stocky done over the years.
eg. how much development in engine units racing and years has the UK Viper CR250 been based from.
etc etc etc ..... the best part of all, your getting this at a much reduced cost if you were to somehow work it out yourself over all those years!

If your looking to improve your lap times, the best results will only come from real PRACTICE/TESTING on test days and your BODY FITNESS not your body weight.

Instead of reading books, watching webmaster videos or surfing the net for the best prices, drag your ass around the block everyday....time yourself, try and beat that time..... in otherwords, race with your running shoes every day when your not racing with your kart. Don't stop even if it hurts... just so you know how your engine feels ;)

Now I've given too much away, let me go and drag my ass around the block again to stay ahead of yous. ;D

[quote author=Viper Racing UK link=topic=1195.msg10580#msg10580 date=1297036771]
My money's on the rough-handed brickie. ;)
[/quote]
owhhhhhhhhh....... time will tell my pommie friend.

The holy grail for 2011 is July 15-17 and November 4-6. This is what the school kid has been told to focus on. ;)
Would be awesome to watch from the side lines, let's not count out others in the race!

owhhhhhhhhh....... can't wait to see how this plays out.

[quote]Instead of reading books, watching webmaster videos or surfing the net for the best prices, drag your ass around the block everyday....time yourself, try and beat that time..... in otherwords, race with your running shoes every day when your not racing with your kart. Don't stop even if it hurts... just so you know how your engine feels

[/quote]

haha, good advice,what can I say other than I have an extremely boring job! :-[

Nothing wrong with reading books or using the net for info Feno, from my experience with racing Cars and Bikes fitness (cardio and strength) and testing is the key to going quicker.. Testing just costs alot of $$$ fitness is free ... ;)

I think your question was based on 2st tuning though so if you do find any good books let me know as I'm also interested in this ....

Hurry up and get your kart finished, I plan on doing alot of test days to get upto pace quickly so your welcome to join me..


femo, a good two stroke book is "Two Stroke Performance Tuning" by A.Graham Bell which is worth a read and gives you a fair bit of information.

[quote author=Nat22 link=topic=1195.msg10588#msg10588 date=1297068853]
feno, a good two stroke book is "Two Stroke Performance Tuning" by A.Graham Bell which is worth a read and gives you a fair bit of information.
[/quote]
Thanks mate, funnily enough I was in town at a car bookstore in York street today and talking to the owner about that very same book, He was telling me how he knew some guys that tried to contact the author to ask him on some stuff and apparently they couldnt reach him or find his contact via the publisher so they could only assume that his name is an alias of a very famous dude that invented the telephone! ??? when I was in the store there was another guy looking at it as well, I had a quick flick through it, looks interesting in how he shapes edges on ports, could be worth a read when Im not running or doing pilates. :)
cheers

[quote author=feno link=topic=1195.msg10589#msg10589 date=1297070522]
looks interesting in how he shapes edges on ports, could be worth a read when Im not running or doing pilates. :)
[/quote]
I wonder if kit Aprilia, Honda and Yamaha ports are like that?
Now get off the computer and start dragging your ass around the block. ;D

[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1195.msg10572#msg10572 date=1296965176]
A "super" billet 250 single would cost al least 50% more than a Viper CR250. Is that what people would like?
[/quote]

[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1195.msg10581#msg10581 date=1297039447]
Anyway this has all got a bit off topic, I would however like to know if anyone would pay $14000 tops for a super 250 national turn key engine package?
[/quote]

Scott,
Wouldn't it be easier to just get a Manfred GAS GAS 250 single package for $10,000. I thought the general feeling from most current 250 National guys was for people to get a second hand $1500 production engine and easily work it themselves to be competitve for low cost, while the GAS GAS would be accepted but in it's own division.
??? ??? ???

On another note everyone,
looks like I wont be able to compete in the nationals in march due to my greenness, so Im available for odd duties on the weekend...... pushing, holes sewn up, hotdogs cooked???

We in the Stockman camp always appreciate a good push and a dog or 3.....

Sam: I have taken your advise and lost 4kg and plan losing another 4.....how you ask...? Karla gave me gastroenteritis and i've decided to keep it for a few more days. Have not eaten for 2 days now. If any one wants it i'm happy to share....F**k pounding the pavement, I'm lazy.

Viper Racing UK

Tue, 08/02/2011 - 08:48

[quote author=Sam Zavaglia link=topic=1195.msg10584#msg10584 date=1297048255]
[quote author=Viper Racing UK link=topic=1195.msg10580#msg10580 date=1297036771]
My money's on the rough-handed brickie. ;)
[/quote]
owhhhhhhhhh....... time will tell my pommie friend.

The holy grail for 2011 is July 15-17 and November 4-6. This is what the school kid has been told to focus on. ;)
Would be awesome to watch from the side lines, let's not count out others in the race!

owhhhhhhhhh....... can't wait to see how this plays out.

[/quote]

I can't be there in July as it clashes with our GP, but it is my plan to be there in November. See you all then!! . . . . . . I hope ;)

Best Regards

Ian :)

Viper Racing UK

Tue, 08/02/2011 - 08:55

[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1195.msg10581#msg10581 date=1297039447]
Ian,
Do you ever sleep!! ;D
[/quote]

Hi Scott,

I did once, but the wife pinched my wallet and spent all my hard earned cash. Since then I haven't bothered :D :D :D

Cheers

Ian :)

[quote author=Viper Racing UK link=topic=1195.msg10595#msg10595 date=1297119352]
[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1195.msg10581#msg10581 date=1297039447]
Ian,
Do you ever sleep!! ;D
[/quote]

Hi Scott,

I did once, but the wife pinched my wallet and spent all my hard earned cash. Since then I haven't bothered :D :D :D

Cheers

Ian :)
[/quote]
You know what they say Ian......that the people in England hide their money under the soap. Maybe that's a better place than your wallet. :D

(I think this comes about that homes in England didn't have bathrooms and the people would need to walk down the street to a community shower to bath.)

[quote author=Sam Zavaglia link=topic=1195.msg10591#msg10591 date=1297074199]
[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1195.msg10572#msg10572 date=1296965176]
A "super" billet 250 single would cost al least 50% more than a Viper CR250. Is that what people would like?
[/quote]

[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1195.msg10581#msg10581 date=1297039447]
Anyway this has all got a bit off topic, I would however like to know if anyone would pay $14000 tops for a super 250 national turn key engine package?
[/quote]

Scott,
Wouldn't it be easier to just get a Manfred GAS GAS 250 single package for $10,000. I thought the general feeling from most current 250 National guys was for people to get a second hand $1500 production engine and easily work it themselves to be competitive for low cost, while the GAS GAS would be accepted but in it's own division.
??? ??? ???
[/quote]

Sam,
that was my point in regards to Feno suggesting that I make a 250 National engine (no offence to him) and how many Gas Gas engines do you see here? I would be pis$ing my time and money away creating one for the Australian market coz most people just don't want to part with coin even for awesome 250 National packages and that’s fine. It's the same with my 125 engine idea. People seem to just want to do things their way and thats fine but it means that they may loose interest because of the amount of trial and error and disappointment that is usually part of doing it yourself and some people are genuinly just out there to have fun but lots aren't.



As with your racing Sam, our racing entails me making the correct choices and taking the quickest and most economical route to be near the front every time we turn up at the track. I don't have pots of money believe me, I am a fitter welder by trade which pays around $25 an hour if your lucky and only just recently I became unemployed and now I’m trying to make money from webmastering (HA). Iv’e tried to get cheaper components to lower the cost of an inline twin like a pair of the latest pre 2011 PVP cylinders, spending 10 hours on the dyno after 8 hours worth of porting etc and the result was marginally better than stock Rotax 256 cylinders which cost as much as 2 pairs of FPE cylinders which work really well by just bolting them on! Cheaper is not always easier and better!


[quote author=Viper Racing UK link=topic=1195.msg10595#msg10595 date=1297119352]
[quote author=SAFE Evolutions link=topic=1195.msg10581#msg10581 date=1297039447]
Ian,
Do you ever sleep!! ;D
[/quote]

Hi Scott,

I did once, but the wife pinched my wallet and spent all my hard earned cash. Since then I haven't bothered :D :D :D

Cheers

Ian :)
[/quote]

Me too!!!!
Scott

refinisher

Sun, 13/02/2011 - 16:17

[quote author=Brendan Luneman link=topic=1195.msg10576#msg10576 date=1296976210]
I must have been in a different country in 2010, because I am sure that it was a Yamaha YZ 250 which claimed Round 1 of the Nationals at Phillip Island. And also tied for first place at Morgan Park with a new driver in the seat.
I am not saying that the Viper package isn;t a good package, but I would much rather have my engine builder close to home, instead of sending my engine to England.
Lets see what Philip Island is going to bring next weekend.
[/quote]

Well Menno I would say the results speak for themself. Once Marty found he had a broken earth wire he drove away

Viper Racing UK

Mon, 14/02/2011 - 09:04

Hi Guys,

Well done to Marty and congratuations to all competitors.

Looks like Marty has been one lucky "son-of-a-bitch". Usually when you loose the earth on the digital programmable ignition it fries one or all of the generator, magnetic pick-up (crank sensor) and coil.

There can sometimes be a delayed effect, but let's hope not!! Matt the same applies to you. You need 2 x earth straps, check them constantly and replace at the smallest sign of fraying.

Best Regards

Ian :)

[quote author=Brendan Luneman link=topic=1195.msg10576#msg10576 date=1296976210]
I would much rather have my engine builder close to home, instead of sending my engine to England.
[/quote]
Why would you need to send the motor back to England to get rebuilt? I'm assuming if you purchase a Viper UK engine package that the porting, ignition curve, compression, carb etc is all done, setup and dynoed before the complete engine is sent to an Australian customer.
A full rebuild should only be a matter of splitting the cases, installing the crank, 6 speed and a new slug in the jug. ;)
Anyone can be a "Gasket Installer" to rebuild the engine, even with a few beers in the belly. ???